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#1 2019-03-04 04:00:43

Bearded_Blunder
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Registered: 2015-09-29
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The bi-annual CD image debate.

Is Lithium the release to drop the CD size image?  How relevant does it remain?
(And yes I have a machine with only a CD drive, but it's so old it struggles even with Bunsen Helium).

Provide both kernels in the DVD & let the installer pick as Debian do instead?  Assuming that's possible.

Thoughts?


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#2 2019-03-04 04:14:46

hhh
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Re: The bi-annual CD image debate.

Interesting, I hadn't thought about dropping the non-PAE image, but maybe it's OK to do so at this point. @johnraff, this is your call.

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#3 2019-03-04 04:41:11

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: The bi-annual CD image debate.

I'll add, you could consider making the 32 bit image non-pae by default, bl-welcome checks & upgrades to pae as part of the 32 bit routine, the more generic live session means only having to have the one.

The CD live session is becoming more limited, each iteration squeezes more things out to make it fit, as it is, there's already arguably too many things missing.

I'm just flying a kite here, seeing what people think.

Last edited by Bearded_Blunder (2019-03-04 04:42:34)


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#4 2019-03-04 05:45:13

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
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Re: The bi-annual CD image debate.

Of course CD-size (under 700) and (non)-pae are two different issues, though we assumed that the likelihood of a machine that didn't support pae being able to boot off a usb stick was small, so collapsed the two use cases into one iso.

I'd say - first let's see if the current CD image appslist still fits on a CD when built on Buster. The trend is always bigger. If it's way over, then yes it might be time to give up. More and more distros are dropping 32bit support too, but I'd like to keep that, please, as I don't want to throw away my two laptops yet.


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#5 2019-03-05 01:34:54

hhh
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Re: The bi-annual CD image debate.

@B_B, our current CD-ISO image is non-PAE by default, and bl-welcome detects if your box supports PPA and offers to install it, IIRC. If we keep offering a CD, we'll keep this setup.

https://www.bunsenlabs.org/installation.html#downloads

-edit- re-read your post, I missed that you meant to make the 32 bit full-ISO No PPA. I think we can still offer the CD ISO, but like @johnraff posted, we'll have to wait a little while til things settle enough that we can build test images.

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#6 2019-03-05 07:35:08

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: The bi-annual CD image debate.

Yes, it is confusing with pae & CD being 2 different issues.
The Helium "CD" iso didn't fit on the first CDR I grabbed, some of us still have spindles of 650s we haven't finished using tongue I had to hunt up a 700

we assumed that the likelihood of a machine that didn't support pae being able to boot off a usb stick was small

You're handling 3 different cases here too:
1) Processor that doesn't have PAE at all (early i686 pre pentium 2 pro)
You're quite correct, such a machine is unlikely to support usb boot my pentium 2 mmx machine doesn't, it also doesn't run Jessie worth a damn, never mind Buster/Lithium, prolly OK for command-line use only.

2) Processor that has PAE but doesn't report it in the cpu flags (Some Pentium M class processors)
I have such a machine, an old thinkpad, it'll boot from USB, it'll also run using the "forcepae" kernel parameter, it runs better with the non-pae kernel due to the overhead for pae

3) Virtualbox installs & the host doesn't support VT-x/AMD-equivalent so guests don't support PAE
I have many such installs, they won't boot from usb, but will from .iso files, CD or DVD

I'd say - first let's see if the current CD image appslist still fits on a CD when built on Buster.

OK that'll work, I can certainly cover all my use cases with the current image set smile If, however, the The apps list won't go in a 700MB image then please consider shipping the 32 bit DVD with the non-pae kernel. Use case 3 requires a post install visit with the installer rescue system & downgrading the kernel otherwise to boot at all. Whereas just saying yes upgrade me to pae as the current CD install does is trivial for anyone who's processor does support it, even if mostly the benefit is debatable. e.g. my netbook also runs slower with a pae kernel, even though it *is* supported.   You still pretty much cover everyone if the DVD does non-pae.

I'm absolutely with @johnraff regards wanting to keep 32 bit support around, I too have 32 bit hardware ( a netbook ) and I'm not really wanting to upgrade my main machine's processor for one with VT-x just to be able to run bunsen in virtual machines.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#7 2019-03-05 10:35:29

vic
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Registered: 2018-06-16
Posts: 3

Re: The bi-annual CD image debate.

Personally I think that 32 bit support is very relevant for a distro like BunsenLabs. There is still a lot of old hardware out there, and it is good to have such an excellent choice as BL is for that purpose.

For my own situation I am quite certain that the Buster release cycle will be my last with 32 bit. Will use, I hope Lithium, on a ten year old eeepc, a one task at a time machine. big_smile Mostly just for streaming some music whilst doing other stuff.

Might add that the cd-image limit is of no interest for me since I use usb. But it is certainly a wanted option for some users, if not many.


"Yes, I should have done better."
                                             -vic

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#8 2019-03-28 16:33:09

stanley
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Registered: 2019-03-27
Posts: 5

Re: The bi-annual CD image debate.

I have a lot of computers that do not boot from USB. There are also cases when the device has one USB, which is occupied by some device. And only cd drive is available. Cd image support is very important to me. Without a live system on cd, I will have a very hard time.

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#9 2019-03-28 17:41:38

hhh
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Re: The bi-annual CD image debate.

@stanley, noted. ATM our intention is to keep offering the CD image, the only question is whether we can pull it off! BTW, you can stay with BL hydrogen/debian stretch until June 2022.

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#10 2019-05-03 20:51:59

Mardus
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From: Estonia
Registered: 2019-05-03
Posts: 8

Re: The bi-annual CD image debate.

So, Hi, I'm new.

I agree with vic and stanley.

BunsenLabs is important to me, for example, because it was the only distro that fulfilled some of the following criteria:

* run from CD;
** as a CD is the cheapest medium;
** the CD-sized edition downloads faster on slower connections;
** takes less storage, and also less time to burn it to disc.

* Be based on the latest Debian;
* Run at least X and Firefox.

These software requirements matter, since Release 2 of CDsized Helium made it possible for me to successfully install Estonian ID card software with less pain than with the very, very outdated Knoppix 7.2 (the last version of the Knoppix CD edition available for download).

Unlike with the Knoppix 7.2 and its very unstable touchpad driver, whereby I could only sign into my bank with my ID card and see my bank balance, I could install more of Estonian ID card software in BunsenLabs, so as to finally be able to make money transfers at my bank (a separate component is required for giving digital signatures), and later be able authenticate myself in order to register the Smart-ID authentication app on my smartphone, so I could use Smart-ID to activate my bank's mobile app.

In late 2018, my bank stopped using code cards with pre-printed codes for two-factor (2FA) authentication.

Requests:

  • Reduce the default system volume, so that it could be 40% in the Volume Control app. This is very important when using headphones.

  • If something like it exists, add a GUI tool to adjust CPU frequency scaling (such as with Intel SpeedStep and like technologies) to prevent a computer and its CPU from overheating. Turns out, that the command-line cpufreq-set exists, but I don't know how to use it.

  • Switch off fading and other visual effects in the OpenBox window manager, as these are not required on older hardware.

  • Add some built-in cryptographic packages that would support smart card readers and software. Some packages already exist, but most are missing. I could create a list, as a large number of those packages are open source.

  • Add the possibility to switch between OpenBox and TWM window managers. TWM is smaller even than OpenBox, but OpenBox has notifications. This could be optional, as I quite enjoy BunsenLabs' OpenBox on decent hardware (a PC with at least 2 Gb of RAM memory).

Firefox on the CDsized edition should have at least the NoScript extension built-in, as the CD version is usually used on older hardware. Firefox should also be optimised to use less resources, given, that a CD version of BunsenLabs is very likely to be used on older hardware.

If anything might be squeezed out in the future, then it could be the Transmission BitTorrent client, as I am usually using the CD in Live mode, and have no need to download torrents. OTOH, there are users who might be thankful for a ready-made BitTorrent client on a CD. The current CD image is not fully 700 Mb in size, so, additional packages could in theory be added.

Some of the packages could be supplanted with lighter ones.

* Evince could be replaced with Xpdf.
Firefox also has built-in PDF support, but Firefox itself is a (necessary) behemoth.
* remove galculator, as Xcalc already exists; give menu option to Xcalc.
* If Xine is smaller than mpv, then use Xine. VLC would then be not required for video. Not sure about non-video music files, but I think Xine should be able to handle those, too.

* Add menu entries to some other existing apps, such as:
** Xedit
** vim in console;
The vim command does not work, but vi does, and opens vim. Unfortunately, vim is somwhat buggy, as some of the keyboard keys, such as backspace in insert mode, do not work as expected.
** nano in console;
** xfontsel
** xclipboard. This is optional, as I'd just discovered ClipIt, but it might not work properly in twm.

There might be more graphical apps that are on the CD, but are not exposed in the menu.

Last edited by Mardus (2019-05-06 07:07:00)

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#11 2019-05-03 20:58:00

Mardus
Member
From: Estonia
Registered: 2019-05-03
Posts: 8

Re: The bi-annual CD image debate.

I forgot to thank the BunsenLabs team for actually providing a modern CD-based live distro based on Debian with X and Firefox.

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