You are not logged in.

#21 2015-10-30 17:08:05

hhh
Gaucho
From: High in the Custerdome
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 16,074
Website

Re: xrdb command not found ...

Elaborating...

Adding the Bunsen repo allows you to install our scripts and configs, but apt has no way of knowing what packages you want installed from jessie. Those packages are specified in the Bunsen configuration of live-build. In other words, 'sudo apt-get install bunsen-*' will pull in bunsen-welcome, bunsen-configs, bunsen-themes, etc... but you'd still need to install the jessie packages with 'sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends openbox obconf tint2 compton geany thunar foo bar blah gosh we put a lot into this OS to make it complete ootb etc'.

re: metapackages, we're trying to make the system modular. If we created bunsen-desktop that pulls in the entire Bunsen system as a dependency of bunsen-desktop, what happens if you want to swap geany for leafpad?

For example, you install the Xfce meta-package, xfce4... even if you use --no-install-recommends you still are pulling in packages that the xfce4 meta-package depends on that you might not need or want, like orage. So suppose you want to replace orage with gsimplecal?

sudo apt-get purge orage && sudo apt install gsimplecal

(^not a typo, thanks HoaS!) What's going to happen? apt will remove orage but everytime you run another apt command like 'sudo apt update', apt will inform you that xfce4 thunar xfdesktop4 xfwm4 etc... are no longer needed and use apt-get autoremove to get rid of them. Well, if you do, your desktop will be gone.

But if you originally did NOT use 'apt-get install xfce4' but instead did something like...

sudo apt-get install thunar xfce4-session xfce4-appfinder orage

and the rest of the meta-package dependencies WITHOUT installing the xfce4 meta-package and later decide you want to lose orage, you can remove it and 'apt-get autoremove' will only remove orage's dependencies that no other package on your system needs and not your precious file manager, window manager and the rest of your desktop.

tl;dr

Meta packages are a mixed blessing... they make it easy to install a bunch of packages all at once but make it hard to remove those packages individually.


I don't care what you do at home. Would you care to explain?

Online

#22 2015-10-30 18:27:25

Sector11
Mod Squid Tpyo Knig
From: Upstairs
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 8,014

Re: xrdb command not found ...

hhh wrote:

Elaborating...

tl;dr

Meta packages are a mixed blessing... they make it easy to install a bunch of packages all at once but make it hard to remove those packages individually.

Thanks you for that.  I didn't understand that fully before reading but have a better grasp now.  I have gotten lazy and use "--simulate" with a few things and autoremove is one of them.  Always nice to know things in a safe environment.


Debian 12 Beardog, SoxDog and still a Conky 1.9er

Offline

#23 2015-10-30 19:21:55

hhh
Gaucho
From: High in the Custerdome
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 16,074
Website

Re: xrdb command not found ...

No problem. smile


I don't care what you do at home. Would you care to explain?

Online

#24 2015-10-30 20:09:05

nobody0
Disabled account
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 664

Re: xrdb command not found ...

That's why I don't like to install DEs and any meta packages. So, I look in the control file and only install what I need, rather than the DE/package maintainer thinks I need.

Offline

#25 2015-10-30 21:56:23

KrunchTime
Member
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 857

Re: xrdb command not found ...

Just for the record...I'm using BunsenLabs under Debian Unstable on two different machines and everything works as well as under Debian Stable.  YMMV if you are using apps/hardware that I am not.

Last edited by KrunchTime (2015-10-30 21:57:50)

Offline

#26 2015-10-31 00:40:45

tknomanzr
BL Die Hard
From: Around the Bend
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,057

Re: xrdb command not found ...

^ Great explanation hhh and sorry if I sounded a bit harsh earlier. Meta packages are something I just feel strongly about as it tends to build fences around stuff. If Linux is about sharing, then building fences tends to run counter to that idea. Of course, I strongly recommend anyone who is truly interested in learning about Linux to build at least one system from scratch, as the knowledge gained is invaluable.

Offline

#27 2015-10-31 02:15:29

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 12,610
Website

Re: xrdb command not found ...

hhh wrote:

Meta packages are a mixed blessing... they make it easy to install a bunch of packages all at once but make it hard to remove those packages individually.

We had a discussion about this a little while ago on CrunchBang: http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=39170
How it works out depends on whether the dependencies are set as hard depends or recommends. If the system is set to install recommends as default (as BL is and #! was) then a metapackage that pulls in recommends will not be uninstalled if one of the recommended packages goes. The drawback there is that on a recommend-installing system those recommended packages will in turn pull in their own recommends... (See the discussion.)

@hhh I appreciate that the packages in the BL iso are put there without their recommends (only depends) and this results in a nice lean system that contains only the packages that we specifically want to be there. The installed system, however, does install recommends by default. This was finally agreed to be the best setup for newer users - those more experienced and able to search out missing libraries can easily change their apt configuration.

About a BunsenLabs metapackage. With an iso install, or a netinstall script, it's not necessary because the necessary packages are already installed. At the same time, we are trying to make the BunsenLabs packages as modular as possible, so users can cherrypick only the bits they want if they want to put some BunsenLabs items in a previously installed system. This means being careful about dependencies; it's a compromise between not having eg broken menu items and pulling in things the user doesn't want. This fine-tuning of dependencies is still ongoing...

At the same time it's not out of the question that we build a bunsen-desktop metapackage at some point. It could be made to recommend all the packages in our list, along with the standard BunsenLabs packages. The individual bunsen-* packages might suggest the desktop metapackage. Users who wanted it could install bunsen-desktop to get a full BL setup on an existing system. (They'd still have to handle any possible clash between the BL stuff and what they already have, of course.)


...elevator in the Brain Hotel, broken down but just as well...
( a boring Japan blog (currently paused), now on Bluesky, there's also some GitStuff )

Introduction to the Bunsenlabs Boron Desktop

Offline

#28 2015-10-31 08:01:18

nobody0
Disabled account
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 664

Re: xrdb command not found ...

Looking back at #! scripts, the cb-include.cfg file was made to make the other cb- files to depend on it. In a way, sort of an artificially created dependency. The only script that didn't want to work, if you delete

if ! . cb-include.cfg 2> /dev/null; then
    echo '  Failed to locate cb-include.cfg in PATH' >&2
    exit 1
 fi

from a script was the help-pipemenu, and maybe the cb-welcome. And, if you were not that worried about using apt-get to install apps in your system, the cb-welcome wasn't that important. #! was not created for complete noobs. Most of the users changed the menu later, which you could see in screenshots threads. Sometimes, the dependencies are created, just to block the user from changing the action/look/whatnot of an app/DE etc.

Maybe, if BunsenLabs is created for complete noobs, then a meta package would be appropriate.

tknomanzr wrote:
Meta packages are something I just feel strongly about as it tends to build fences around stuff. If Linux is about sharing, then building fences tends to run counter to that idea.

Last edited by nobody0 (2015-10-31 13:52:32)

Offline

#29 2015-10-31 15:25:52

hhh
Gaucho
From: High in the Custerdome
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 16,074
Website

Re: xrdb command not found ...

I'm cleaning the Bug Reports forum up as we're gearing up for our next flurry of development and I'd like to prioritize our issues. Moving to Help & Support (Other).


I don't care what you do at home. Would you care to explain?

Online

#30 2015-10-31 19:26:58

nobody0
Disabled account
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 664

Re: xrdb command not found ...

From post #21 onwards, this had become a thread about meta packages, I believe.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB