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#26 2021-03-02 01:12:02

sleekmason
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From: Ozarks
Registered: 2018-05-22
Posts: 570
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Re: Live-build options and such

Thank you so much for responding johnraff.

I'm finding the live-build from sid certainly works better overall, but that is to be expected. The changelog is chock full of goodness. There are two changes I personally notice the most for live-build/sid. The first is the new replacement entries for "includes.chroot".  Namely includes.chroot_after_packages, and includes.chroot_before_packages, which gives the option to place all skel files before or after the chroot package install.

So far, after our previous discussion, I've still only placed everything in "before_packages, and have had success, but live-build does now produce that single interactive install question from lightdm. (press default/enter). I imagine if I switched it to 'after_packages', the prompt wouldn't appear during the build anymore.

The second thing I'm liking a lot is that the build process doesn't seem to timeout, or fail near as often. Nothing like waiting an hour to have the net timeout, and have to start again.

That being said, it is certainly starting to make more sense for me personally, to stay with stable and just add a 'preferences' file to apt, and just grab something to look at and put back. *note to others (generally) reading this - Don't do this. Just, don't. It won't take long to mess things up if you are not careful. I keep a backup install in case something goes wrong. 10 minutes and up again.

Anyway, all of the changes we've been discussing should be in Bullseye/stable.  That will be a nice change for the better.


I like your preseed defaults!
 
Contrib and nonfree I purposefully set to true for my uses, but it looks like I could make a couple of improvements.

Namely the deb-src lines already commented, and setting https rather than http. <- Jeez.

So, It looks like if I leave contrib and nonfree unset, there will be a question to add them during the package management portion of the install.  Have to think about that further.

Apparently setting security and updates to true in config brings the screen I showed.  I like having them already set to true and enabled, but wouldn't mind losing the screen, or better, just ask the backports question.

Ha! Because of the issue with Lilo not being available in testing, I couldn't get a Bullseye build yet. Did you get a build? or just mess with the installer?

Super interested in your "select and install software" option. I do not have options for "other desktop environments" Sounds like I need to enable something? (live-boot or live-config?) or is this Bunsen magic?

I am however, familiar with the "tasks" when setting up a system, makes things way easier to get started.

For the install itself, I am left with the apparent option of either a "normal" install, or a "live" install. I've always used "normal". I guess I need to see what the differences are firsthand.

@Johnraff, Thank you for your in-depth reply. Lot's of good information. In a week or two, I plan to switch back to BL for a while and try to learn a few things about how it's put together. The details fascinate me. A much larger picture has developed for me over the past few months. Awesome.

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#27 2021-03-02 04:59:51

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 7,851
Website

Re: Live-build options and such

sleekmason wrote:

...live-build does now produce that single interactive install question from lightdm. (press default/enter). I imagine if I switched it to 'after_packages', the prompt wouldn't appear during the build anymore.

That's new to me. I've never been asked a question by live-build once it's started running - if it hit something it didn't like, it just errored out. I always thought it was supposed to run completely unattended.

So, It looks like if I leave contrib and nonfree unset, there will be a question to add them during the package management portion of the install.

Could be. As I said, part of the confusion is that this all depends on exactly what version of DI you are running. Just try it and see is the only answer I guess...

Apparently setting security and updates to true in config brings the screen I showed.

Same comment.

Because of the issue with Lilo not being available in testing, I couldn't get a Bullseye build yet. Did you get a build? or just mess with the installer?

None of the above. I'm still looking at the BL packages for Bullseye - just thinking about applying some of the fixes that were already agreed but didn't make it into Lithium. Then discussions with the other devs about anything new we want to add or change for Beryllium (not too much I hope). I have no intention of touching live-build or the installer until they get out of the development phase and become stable. The period just before a hard freeze is the most chaotic in the Debian cycle because everyone is desperate to squeeze their last-minute fixes in. I'm just going to sit that out. Plenty of other things to do...

Super interested in your "select and install software" option. I do not have options for "other desktop environments" Sounds like I need to enable something? (live-boot or live-config?) or is this Bunsen magic?

That's not BL, it's straight Debian and has been there for some versions. I'm amazed you haven't seen it. Maybe the GUI presents it rather differently from the "text" installer (which I use more often). "Other desktop environments" was my words, not the installer's though - it just lists the tasks, but most of them are things like GNOME, MATE, LXDE... with webserver, SSH and Standard Utilities at the end.

I am however, familiar with the "tasks" when setting up a system, makes things way easier to get started.

There are various opinions about tasks, and the app tasksel, in Debianland. Some people detest them, and claim everything should be done with metapackages. (I think Gnome/Ubuntu might cause some issues with the way they use them.)


...elevator in the Brain Hotel, broken down but just as well...
( a boring Japan blog (currently paused), idle Twitterings and GitStuff )

Introduction to the Bunsenlabs Lithium Desktop

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#28 2021-03-02 23:29:49

sleekmason
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From: Ozarks
Registered: 2018-05-22
Posts: 570
Website

Re: Live-build options and such

Howdy johnraff - and interested others,

I went ahead and did a build in sid again with some changes to my preseed file, and to check for the allusive additional packages/wm's screen we have been discussing.

johnraff wrote:

That's new to me. I've never been asked a question by live-build once it's started running - if it hit something it didn't like, it just errored out. I always thought it was supposed to run completely unattended.

Yeah, still trying to figure out the reason for both to exist.  I suppose to supplant config files and the like before the package install.

In the stable build, using "includes.chroot", all the packages are installed first and then the skel files replace any configuration files after the chroot installation.

In the sid live-build this appears to be the equivalent to "includes.chroot_after_packages", inserting all the files at the same point in the process as the stable live-build.

So, I changed over all skel files to "includes.chroot_after_packages" to double check, and the behavior indeed matches the stable live-build. I no longer had the interactive question and the build completed with success.

That's not BL, it's straight Debian and has been there for some versions. I'm amazed you haven't seen it. Maybe the GUI presents it rather differently from the "text" installer (which I use more often). "Other desktop environments" was my words, not the installer's though - it just lists the tasks, but most of them are things like GNOME, MATE, LXDE... with webserver, SSH and Standard Utilities at the end.

Seems this has to be an option applied somewhere in the configuration. (lb-config? some task for the installer?)

Here is the only possible relevant screen in any edition I use, stable or sid. And pretty sure this is not at all the screen you are talking about.
(*note, for Pete's sake, I have BL on a stick. . . I'll look when finished here.) (see below).

Anyhow, I haven't made any deletions or additions to live-build other than the common ones you would expect.

Thought you might get a kick out of this. This is the dark expert text installer in sid coming down the pike, not mine.

Dark-text-expert-installer.jpg

The options continue further down on the list to offer Squash and the like, but nothing resembling what we are talking about.  I have seen nothing that offers the options for desktops and the like in either the stable or sid installer.

---
On the Live install vs. the Normal install, I noticed zero differences in the end product. The installs go well either way. Basically from what I gather, "live" copies the image itself, while "normal" installs and sets up the system from packages on the local media.

I suppose changing the "live.list.chroot" to add/remove programs could affect which option should be chosen?

The manual gives this.

"Normal" Debian Installer: This is a normal live system image with a separate kernel and initrd which (when selected from the appropriate bootloader) launches into a standard Debian Installer instance, just as if you had downloaded a CD image of Debian and booted it. Images containing a live system and such an otherwise independent installer are often referred to as "combined images".
628

On such images, Debian is installed by fetching and installing .deb packages using debootstrap, from local media or some network-based network, resulting in a default Debian system being installed to the hard disk.
629

This whole process can be preseeded and customized in a number of ways; see the relevant pages in the Debian Installer manual for more information. Once you have a working preseeding file, live-build can automatically put it in the image and enable it for you.
630

"Live" Debian Installer: This is a live system image with a separate kernel and initrd which (when selected from the appropriate bootloader) launches into an instance of the Debian Installer.
631

Installation will proceed in an identical fashion to the "normal" installation described above, but at the actual package installation stage, instead of using debootstrap to fetch and install packages, the live filesystem image is copied to the target. This is achieved with a special udeb called live-installer.
632

After this stage, the Debian Installer continues as normal, installing and configuring items such as bootloaders and local users, etc.

Edit*
I just installed Bunsen labs from the iso off of usb, and found no options that you speak of concerning desktop environments, unless maybe checking one of the boxes in my screenshot above activates the option?

Ah! I think I may have figured out our confusion . . Are you talking about one of the Debian install cd's?

johnraff wrote:

"Select and install software"
Here you get to check or uncheck collections from a list of 9 desktop environments plus "web server", "ssh server and "standard system utilities". (If you're planning to install BL on top of this, you should choose only the last one.)

This would certainly be a cool feature to have.)

Last edited by sleekmason (2021-03-03 00:48:46)

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#29 2021-03-03 01:52:43

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 7,851
Website

Re: Live-build options and such

sleekmason wrote:
johnraff wrote:

(the "select and install software" option) That's not BL, it's straight Debian and has been there for some versions. I'm amazed you haven't seen it. Maybe the GUI presents it rather differently from the "text" installer (which I use more often). "Other desktop environments" was my words, not the installer's though - it just lists the tasks, but most of them are things like GNOME, MATE, LXDE... with webserver, SSH and Standard Utilities at the end.

Here is the only possible relevant screen in any edition I use, stable or sid. And pretty sure this is not at all the screen you are talking about.
https://i.postimg.cc/njL1N7jV/Dark-text-expert-installer.jpg
The options continue further down on the list to offer Squash and the like, but nothing resembling what we are talking about.  I have seen nothing that offers the options for desktops and the like in either the stable or sid installer.

Right, that's a quite different, earlier stage in the installer, talking about possible extra installer components, not things for the installed system.

I just installed Bunsen labs from the iso off of usb, and found no options that you speak of concerning desktop environments, unless maybe checking one of the boxes in my screenshot above activates the option?
Ah! I think I may have figured out our confusion . . Are you talking about one of the Debian install cd's?

johnraff wrote:

"Select and install software"
Here you get to check or uncheck collections from a list of 9 desktop environments plus "web server", "ssh server and "standard system utilities". (If you're planning to install BL on top of this, you should choose only the last one.)

Exactly. Because BL does a live install, D-I skips the main package install stage so selecting packages to install doesn't come into it. That's a window that appears when running a normal Debian install iso.

This would certainly be a cool feature to have.)

Not on a BL iso though. Adding a GNOME DE is the last thing people would want to do!

On the Live install vs. the Normal install, I noticed zero differences in the end product. The installs go well either way. Basically from what I gather, "live" copies the image itself, while "normal" installs and sets up the system from packages on the local media.

Yes, that's it, and in the case of a "netinstall" iso (what I usually use) it downloads the packages to install. The "live" install usually goes much faster, with messages like "copying files...", while the "normal" install will be going to the Debian repos, downloading and installing packages the regular way - unless you've packed them in the iso, which would make it quite a bit bigger.

I suppose changing the "live.list.chroot" to add/remove programs could affect which option should be chosen?

That's the package list for the live system. I've never built a "normal" install iso, but if I remember right, the "normal" install package list follows that too. But whether to then do a live or normal install is set in a line in auto/config:

--debian-installer live

NB (yet) another source of confusion - the Debian Installer in expert mode offers to do a "live" install at some point. That's quite a different thing, and seems to be about putting a live system on the hard disk (probably in a separate small partition) so that every time you run it it's a new system, non-persistent presumably. I'd like to try that out some day - it might possibly be useful for things like internet banking, or fixing your regular system when grub or fstab is broken...


...elevator in the Brain Hotel, broken down but just as well...
( a boring Japan blog (currently paused), idle Twitterings and GitStuff )

Introduction to the Bunsenlabs Lithium Desktop

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