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#1 2019-02-08 23:38:56

lowrider
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 280

Linux is not ready for the World

No offence, i know this is harsh, but let me explain.

So here are my opinions why linux is not ready for the World:

Imagine you are a person who lives anywhere on the planet and you don't now nothing about the english language.
You heard from whoever there is this cool free (as free beer/freedom) thing for your computer called linux.
You think yes, just what i want.

For me as a person who was never educated in english and learned everything i know by selfeducation it is easy to install
(name mainstream) linux. But when every word or even every single letter looks like egyptian hieroglyphs what then?
You will be faced by letters you (at worse) don't know about and instructions you can't read.

I know the big ones are well translated to a gazzilion languages but that just goes for the major Desktop Environments.
What if you want to tinker with your system? Yup the english language is forced down your throat!
Prove on that harsh statement is every config file on your system.

Sad but true. No english, no (deeper) linux.

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#2 2019-02-09 00:00:58

Bearded_Blunder
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From: Seat: seat0; vc7
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 730

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

Same's true internally for all the competition, start opening config files in Windows, or run regedit, coders write stuff to function, translations come later, but those key-value pairs in configs are compiled in, the UI you can translate, what you need to tweak is another order of complexity.

No fix in sight for anything much for tinkerers the bar is simply higher, you have to learn the "config file language" much as you have to learn the "C" language if you wish to create software in it.  Any operating system.

Basically you have to learn to speak to the configs like pilots have to learn to speak to air traffic control.  Does this mean aircraft are not ready for the world?

Hmmm depends on what standard you require for ready.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#3 2019-02-11 02:42:57

onlain
Member
Registered: 2016-04-22
Posts: 39

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

I Agree with @Bearded_Bluner.

Everything around technology inherits english as language. just look the percent of games, apps, sites, and other stuffs published on internet. It's depent more of the target or the community than on the developers. I can remember the days when windows had no support for spanish users either.

Last edited by onlain (2019-02-11 09:20:35)

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#4 2019-02-11 02:48:37

hhh
Meep!
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 8,722
Website

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

I'm tempted to merge this with the "ready for mass adoption?" thread, but I'll leave it. @lowrider deserves it being left as its own thread. Thanks for being a long-standing forum member, dude. smile You're English is great, better than many native speakers.

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#5 2019-02-11 04:32:42

Bearded_Blunder
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Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 730

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

Better to leave it, that other one is going off-topic anyhow.. headed directly for /dev/null (TGN/TNG/GTN/NGT/TNG>> something) Not that I wasn't aware I'd go that direction to begin with, just one isn't *allowed* to open topics in /dev/null else I'd have opened it there to start with tongue


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#6 2019-02-11 10:46:17

THX1138
Member
Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 197

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

Not certain if this thread is serious or not. I'll just ask, can you explain how it would work if there was not a language that dominated the technology? Programming, for example, function names, etc, command-line parameters, etc etc

Also, you realise that one of the stated aims of the USA and Britain is to force the adoption of the English language as the global language? It has been a long term aim since at least the end of WWII. In the belief that if people speak a language they will understand and agree more with the aims of those for whom the language is native.

It is well documented discussion and also one of the aims of the WWW is to force English as the globally dominant language.

In commercial and government spheres, French used to be the language of diplomacy, English the language of business.
Nowadays English does both jobs.

Last edited by THX1138 (2019-02-11 10:58:14)


The telephone is an antiquity - you never know who is calling, there is no image, it is an outmoded product which constantly disrupts work (Ralf Hutter (Kraftwerk)) ps: my wife knows how much I dislike being disrupted at Work - Ralf Hutter hit the nail on the head there

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#7 2019-02-11 11:14:54

iMBeCil
WAAAT?
From: Edrychwch o'ch cwmpas
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 649

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

THX1138 wrote:

Not certain if this thread is serious or not. I'll just ask, can you explain how it would work if there was not a language that dominated the technology? Programming, for example, function names, etc, command-line parameters, etc etc

There would be several separate versions of the C (for example), with keywords in English, and in French, and in Germany. Every with little differences. French version would have had the reserved word 'baguette' instead of the 'main', and German version would instead of 'void' have keyword 'Hans_bring_ze_flamethrower'.

There would be several parser/translator between English C <--> German C <--> French C, maintained by appropriate Universities.

After several years, an IEEE committee would be formed, and they would produce HTML-C standard. Every Uni and OpenSource would conform to this, while every private company will still maintain its specific version.

In the end, everybody would agree on mostly English version, as this language seems to be the simplest one, compared to other two. French would be pissed by it, and Germans ... well I don't dare to write what would Germans do.

My 2 cents.


Postpone all your duties; if you die, you won't have to do them ..

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#8 2019-02-11 15:02:42

S7.L
Member
Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 338

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

This is why china and india make a priority of the Teofl.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_of_E … n_Language

The english language written and spoken is far superior today than most other languages.

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#9 2019-02-11 19:25:19

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 4,159
Website

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

THX1138 wrote:

Not certain if this thread is serious or not. I'll just ask, can you explain how it would work if there was not a language that dominated the technology? Programming, for example, function names, etc, command-line parameters, etc etc

no, i can't imagine, but what if it wasn't english but, say, esperanto.
c'mon, let's translate common unix commands to esperanto!

apt-get install thefuck
# becomes
kapabla-instali thefuck

(according to you-know-who.translate)
_____________________________

Also, you realise that one of the stated aims of the USA and Britain is to force the adoption of the English language as the global language? It has been a long term aim since at least the end of WWII.

this doesn't surprise me at all, but i say it again: why not esperanto? (i actually know the answer to that, it has something to do with this.)

In commercial and government spheres, French used to be the language of diplomacy, English the language of business.
Nowadays English does both jobs.

fun fact:
in the socialist countries, people did not learn english but russian.
to this day Russian is the accepted language "of business" in the baltic countries, where it really is required because
a) the countries are so small you basically cannot avoid crossing borders all the time
b) their own languages are really weird and differ quite a lot
and
c) even young people's english usually isn't good at all (and apparently they still learn russian)

Last edited by ohnonot (2019-02-11 19:26:12)

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#10 2019-02-11 19:58:18

damo
....moderator....
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 5,250

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

THX1138 wrote:

...
Also, you realise that one of the stated aims of the USA and Britain is to force the adoption of the English language as the global language?...

Your source for that assertion is...?


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#11 2019-02-11 19:59:57

THX1138
Member
Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 197

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

apt-get install thefuck

strange you mention that, as I only found out about that program the day after I installed bunsen

in the socialist countries, people did not learn english but russian.
to this day Russian is the accepted language "of business" in the baltic countries, where it really is required because
a) the countries are so small you basically cannot avoid crossing borders all the time
b) their own languages are really weird and differ quite a lot
and
c) even young people's english usually isn't good at all (and apparently they still learn russian)

As you would expect. The soviet bloc was immense but surprisingly, even Russian diplomats spoke in French at important diplomatic meetings at one time


The telephone is an antiquity - you never know who is calling, there is no image, it is an outmoded product which constantly disrupts work (Ralf Hutter (Kraftwerk)) ps: my wife knows how much I dislike being disrupted at Work - Ralf Hutter hit the nail on the head there

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#12 2019-02-11 20:03:36

Sun For Miles
Member
Registered: 2017-04-12
Posts: 150

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

I disagree with the topic title and OP.

language, noun
1a : the words, their pronunciation, and the methods of combining them used and understood by a community

I understand the national pride and will to impose one's own cultural heritage in a programming world, and there are more than few examples of localized environments in Russian, Chinese, French, German, etc. You could argue that it is especially strong for learning at young age if kids are not fluent in English. Long term I think it might be damaging for the whole ecosystem(s) if your goal is maximum reach and expansion of your open-source codebase (config-base?). It creates closed environment that does not utilize the benefits of the worldwide community, but it might be a valid solution if you want to limit your creation to your localized sphere. Those were probably some of the reasons that made Python creators choose English as a meta-language and not Dutch. Would C++ or Python programmers learn Chinese variant of those languages? In a western corporate environment highly unlikely, and almost certainly yes if they are working for Chinese government.

lowrider wrote:

Sad but true. No english, no (deeper) linux.

While this is completely true, what percentage of people who "want to go deeper" actually need localized environment? From my point of view your criticizm of English language being dominant comes down to a person not having a chance to learn English during one's education, which is kind of a puzzle to me. But without questioning the accessibility of English language, I would like to repeat that the purpose of any language is to be understandable means for connecting a community. So in a way this question comes down to one's definition of "community", and what do you want to achieve with your effort.

My attitude is that one of the strengths of Linux is exactly the universal language in it's foundation (English). I would not like having to use extra interpreters for Chinese, Russian, Dutch or any other language. I am not against people having environments set in their native languages, but I certainly am not a type of person who would learn any other "speaking" language in orther to code (or edit config files) in that native environment, unless needed by my own career path.


Señor Chang, why do you teach Spanish?

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#13 2019-02-11 20:07:49

damo
....moderator....
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 5,250

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

THX1138 wrote:

... surprisingly, even Russian diplomats spoke in French at important diplomatic meetings at one time

Not surprising at all, considering the imperial connections throughout Europe, and that French had become the accepted language of diplomacy and cultured society by the 17th Century.

But remember that a man should use many languages to be properly understood:

When speaking to God, Latin; to the military, German; to the merchants, Greek and Arabic; to the musicians, Italian; to his cook, Chinese; to the sailors and engineers, English; to the artists, Russian; to friends, Spanish; to enemies Dutch or Hungarian; to his girl-friend, French; to his wife, Japanese...


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#14 2019-02-11 23:30:05

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,217

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

Do feel some sympathy for people with a real interest for gnu/Linux. A hurdle of having to learn a new language before tackling trying to learn something as vast and amazing as gnu/nix would have to be viewed as a major hardship. Still don't agree it's the responsibility of major Open source entities to address it to anyone/everyone's standards. Many no doubt do have ongoing translation efforts.

Sure they'd be glad of any volunteers who are multilingual wishing to help translate documentation for others. Hopefully good books translated to xyz lang and online communities? Also keep hoping for advances in translation technology. Just for the sake of the increases in global comm it could bring us all.

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#15 2019-02-11 23:38:11

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,217

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

In a way gnu/nix geek speak can kinda seem a language of its own. Learn enough of the fundamentals (and a bit more) and things that formerly looked like Chinese start making perfect sense.

One day someone looks at geekese and says, ah ok, that's what they're talking about. tongue

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#16 2019-02-12 00:02:25

lowrider
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 280

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

BLizgreat! wrote:

In a way gnu/nix geek speak can kinda seem a language of its own. Learn enough of the fundamentals (and a bit more) and things that formerly looked like Chinese start making perfect sense.

One day someone looks at geekese and says, ah ok, that's what they're talking about. tongue

Ty @the bizquit
you made my day kiss

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#17 2019-02-12 01:43:01

hhh
Meep!
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 8,722
Website

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

Hmm, we're getting pretty babbly here. Let me propose a new statement...

The World is not ready for Linux.

Linux already dominates. The World is only now realizing it.

https://www.networkworld.com/article/33 … -2019.html

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#18 2019-02-12 03:15:00

Bearded_Blunder
Dodging A Bullet
From: Seat: seat0; vc7
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 730

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

Blabby is fun, I think the discussion implied PCs, we weren't really discussing what runs "smart" lightbulbs & appliances, though given the rather limited interaction options with those maybe the language issue goes away.. assuming you count them to start with.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#19 2019-02-12 09:14:44

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 4,159
Website

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

re languages, a few more thoughts:

  • there is something called simple english or international english, both come pretty close to "computer english" imo. Maybe interfaces and man pages should use that, too.

  • not a single global language and not computer related, but still interesting: Pidgin, esp. Pidgin English: "mi no savi" or "me no savvy" (remember Pirates of the Caribbean?)

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#20 2019-09-29 07:41:54

Mardus
Member
From: Estonia
Registered: 2019-05-03
Posts: 13

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

ohnonot wrote:

fun fact:
in the socialist countries, people did not learn english but russian.
to this day Russian is the accepted language "of business" in the baltic countries, where it really is required because
a) the countries are so small you basically cannot avoid crossing borders all the time
b) their own languages are really weird and differ quite a lot
and
c) even young people's english usually isn't good at all (and apparently they still learn russian)

This is a fair bit off-topic, but I thought to add a detailed response to avoid any misunderstandings.

Now, however you might think, Russian is not 'the accepted language of business', whether 'business' is in quotes or not, and it is not the officially required language there, and not even a state language.

In most modern businesses, English has become lingua franca.

Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania have all their own national languages as official languages, which are also majority languages in each of the three countries. In European Union institutions, English and French are used as glue languages. Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian are three of the 24 official languages in the European Union, so, documents require translation, and people require interpreters. Russian is not an official language anywhere in the EU, or in EU institutions.

Since in all three countries Russian is a minority language, it is therefore not spoken uniformly everywhere. That way, the state language prevails and is obligatory, while Russian as a non-official language is optional. It is spoken by Russians in the Baltic countries, and can be tried to be used for communication in the absence of knowing English, or the national language.

Therefore, if people are polite, they ask which language the addressee speaks. In stores, the customer says "hello" first to indicate which language of communication they prefer.

Not being an officially required language in the Baltics, and not being a state language there either, does not preclude the wide use of Russian, but it can be very patchy, and may depend on the region.

For example, in Tallinn (400,000 people), the ratio of Estonians and Russians is 50%/50%, so, strangers usually ask which language is spoken. There are many Russians in the southern city of Tartu (100,000 people), but it's a given, that all people in Tartu speak Estonian. In the north-east of Estonia, the Russian language is more prevalent.

In the north-eastern border city of Narva (55,249 inhabitants), Russian is spoken by 95% of the people living there. Narva people cross the border to the neighbouring Russian border city of Ivangorod for cheap vodka, cigarettes, and petrol.

Here's a nice Estonian/Russian rap video about Narva. The song is very popular, and has gained almost 2.4 million views since being published on 7 August 2019. This is really big for a song made in Estonia. Narva was in a contest to become one of the European capitals of culture (there are always two every year), but lost out to Tartu. Tallinn was the European Capital of Culture in 2011.

People from the neighbouring Ivangorod and from farther Russian regions come to Narva for food, that is, if Russian customs won't catch them and confiscate said food. I think there's some kind of a weight/unit limit to how much food is allowed to be taken from Estonia/the EU to Russia. — Long story short, this is due to Russia's imposition of retaliatory sanctions against all EU foodstuffs, because the EU imposed limited sanctions on Russia (mostly against a number of officials) for Russia annexing Crimea and invading into parts of eastern Ukraine.

On the other hand, tourists from Russia are very welcome, but one should not expect most people living in each of the Baltic states to understand Russian.

Other than Russians and natively-Russian-speaking peoples, only the older generations of Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians can speak Russian, mostly because they grew up and lived in the Soviet system. Even if Russian is taught in school as a second language, then a younger indigenous Estonian, Latvian, or Lithuanian might not remember much of the Russian instruction well after having graduated high school. This especially applies in Estonia. Whereas younger Latvians and Lithuanians are known to speak Russian better, but that's anecdotal (as in, hearsay).

In Estonia, the entire situation has not precluded a level of bilingualism in certain types of communication, such as advertisements for products, texts in product labels, many government websites, and taxi apps (pick your poison). Estonian is obligatory, but addition of Russian depends on the producer or site/app maintainer. Street names are not in Cyrillic.

The customer-facing service sector in Estonia does require proficiency in Russian as a matter of course, though lots of large stores have self-checkout. In one store chain, four languages are offered: Estonian, Russian, English, and Finnish. Ride-sharing services, such as Bolt (Taxify) do not in practice require verbal communication, since apps have language selection options.

In Estonian commuter transport (buses, trams, trolleys, and trains), people of different nationalities and colours speak different languages, and no normal person ever minds. Alas, a bunch of right-leaning and far-right politicians do have a problem with people of color, and a handful of far-right politicians have even made racist hand signs, and their supporters are racists :/

There are separate Russian-language radio / tv channels, and these are not aired from Russia, but are aired natively. A number of TV channels originating from Russia have been banned in Latvia and Lithuania, while Estonia has chosen not to ban them. Instead, Estonia's national public broadcaster ERR launched its own Russian-language channel almost exactly four years ago. If memory serves, Latvia has a private Russian-language channel.

Pidginisation of languages is avoided and sometimes frowned upon, but is not unavoidable, if absolutely necessary (an emergency, etc.); people prefer if a person spoke one language properly, and that they would not mix any language's syntax and vocabulary.

English has become the glue language amongst young people — these are Generation Y / Millennials, and Generation Z. The cusp year is people born in 1981 and later.

Last edited by Mardus (2019-09-29 08:04:44)

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#21 2019-09-29 09:31:35

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 4,159
Website

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

^ Interesting, detailed and as objective as possible. I like it.

I heard strange things from Estonia; people of Russian descent weren't automatically granted citizenship when the country became independent, and so to this day they aren't actually Estonians of Russian descent, but Russians living in Estonia - even if they were born there. At least that's what I heard, and I'm aware it might be a simplified version. Do you have an equally detailed & objective take on that?

ohnonot wrote:

to this day Russian is the accepted language "of business" in the baltic countries

Granted, this was exaggerated.
It is however my experience from traveling, and communicating in shops, public transport, markets etc.
The first go-to language when Baltic fails is usually not English but Russian.
Even when not talking with me, I heard people speaking Russian all the time - I guess mostly in international meeting points, like the bus terminal in Riga and the neighbouring market stalls/hall. (*)

ohnonot wrote:

even young people's english usually isn't good at all (and apparently they still learn russian)

Obviously this does not apply to all young people in the Baltic states - I think "usually" was inappropriate here.
But again, I speak from personal experience.

(*) a very unique place btw, well worth a visit.

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#22 2019-09-29 13:56:02

glittersloth
...always giving it to you straight
Registered: 2015-09-30
Posts: 899

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

Don't worry @lowrider. If the kids are any indication, the world is moving to emojis. In a decade, you'll be configuring shit with obnoxious faces and heart signs.

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#23 2019-09-29 23:32:49

hhh
Meep!
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 8,722
Website

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

God, please no. I do not need to see posts like "systemd  devil  glasses  kiss  monkey  ops  cry  angel  roll  mad  tongue  yikes  big_smile". I mean, I'm pretty sure those cartoons sexually harassed me just now and then were proud of it.

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#24 2019-09-30 05:23:47

brontosaurusrex
Middle Office
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,930
Website

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

Mardus wrote:

For example, in Tallinn (400,000 people), the ratio of Estonians and Russians is 50%/50%, so, strangers usually ask which language is spoken.

Was just there few months ago, beautiful city, especially the old-viking-looking part. Took full day off the official events just for hiking, got lost and mostly got help in Russian (which I don't speak), fun.

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#25 2019-10-03 06:37:53

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 4,159
Website

Re: Linux is not ready for the World

brontosaurusrex wrote:

beautiful city, especially the old-viking-looking part.

I guess you are referring to Tallinn's old town?
It used to be part of the Hanseatic League; most of the old buildings are probably from that era.

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