BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

BLizgreat! · 2017-11-07 17:07:42

Ok ... this one may be right up Hoas's alley. I hope so cause a) He's better at all this techie gobbledygook and b) I'm kinda lazy too.

Anyone ever installed Minix 3 to bare-metal or in a VM ? See stuff like this and that. It's also said to get along just fine with BSD and gnu/Linux. Are some youtube video's pertaining to installing it too if anyone were actually curious to want to watch them.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-07 17:11:43)

Head_on_a_Stick · 2017-11-07 19:50:30

Ah yes, MINIX 8)

I've been meaning to try it out again recently since Mr. Tanenbaum got several million Euros in development grants, they are now focusing on creating the most secure, reliable operating system possible.

The microkernel design allows all non-critical processes to be moved to user space and so crashes in drivers and suchlike don't bring down the kernel and the processes just get restarted automatically

It is now possible to run their microkernel with a NetBSD userland and take advantage of pkgsrc and the 4,000 or so packages:

http://wiki.minix3.org/doku.php?id=deve … sduserland

The only problem for MINIX is that microkernel design has moved on somewhat and the L4 family are significantly smaller than MINIX's kernel; the seL4 variant even has an "end-to-end proof of implementation correctness and security enforcement", which is nice.

EDIT: http://wiki.minix3.org/doku.php?id=user … stallation

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2017-11-07 19:51:23)

Steve · 2017-11-08 10:09:29

Interesting bit of info on L4 mickrokernel Hoas mentions from my homelands here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wombat_OS && https://ts.data61.csiro.au/publications … 5.abstract

martix · 2017-11-08 14:12:05

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

creating the most secure, reliable operating system possible.

Oh, I thought that's already there, called Microsoft Windows. 8)

Btw it's always interesting to read again the minix - "linux is obsolete" story...

BLizgreat! · 2017-11-08 20:11:45

Thanks fella's for all the interesting adds and humor, sure with window$ so readily available, why would ya need anything else !?!?

Really just posted this being a dork. Seriously doubt will ever actually get around to playing with it. Too much for me to even attempt to learn about my platform of choice = gnu/Linux, to dream about dorking with any others.

Do believe it's interesting, to sometimes look over what's out there. Skim some info about them or whatever else. Still though until I find the solutions for this only 24 measily hours in a day, inconvenient 365dys in yr headache, doubt I'll get very far into any of them.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-08 20:13:51)

BLizgreat! · 2017-11-08 20:17:03

HA !!! At long last think I've got it ! Hence forth the unit of time known as a "day" shall now consist of 84 standard hours and "year" likewise now be considered 634dys !

Errrr ... hmmmm, nope, still don't have any more or enough time for Minix dang it !

ohnonot · 2017-11-08 21:03:42

i'm surprised nobody yet mentioned that minix is what intel processors use for their "management engine":
https://www.networkworld.com/article/32 … intel.html
probably has something to do with why that tanenbaum person got all that money.
i'm not judging minix, just adding an important piece of information.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2017-11-08 21:25:40

ohnonot wrote:

i'm surprised nobody yet mentioned that minix is what intel processors use for their "management engine":
https://www.networkworld.com/article/32 … intel.html

https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic.php?id=4329

Please search the boards before posting...

probably has something to do with why that tanenbaum person got all that money

Please don't do that, the information is publicly available:

https://www.pcworld.com/article/163890/article.html

Your comment looks dangerously like FUD, did pendrachen's diatribe not sink in yet? ]:D

BLizgreat! · 2017-11-08 21:48:59

OH NOES ! Please don't move this to the bikeshed Hoas, please don't !

Messing around obviously. Kinda doubt the grant + new development thing too. Still though have to admit it's not an insane jump in reasoning either. Why pay for your own development of a technology, when you can open source it (or provide some funding to stimulate the projects) and hopefully get TONS of free effort and wo/man hours without paying an additional dime ? Then take what improvement and etc and use it for whichever applications were the original intent.

In this one ... kinda doubting Intel has any lack of in-house development engineers, definitely no shortage of re$ources. So unless said grant funding comes with solid strings attached. ie: We have rights to any future development and power to enforce those in court of law etc blahblah.

Wouldn't just benefit Intel, all such products of open source would also be readily available to their competitors or anyone else to use and learn from too. Though there are several precedents where XYZ MAJOR tech-player/Corp has done it. Shrugs, plan on not losing sleep.

Dang it ... why is, after typing all this, am starting to get the vague aroma of paint ? Hmmmmm, *sniff, hmmmm ... of the types commonly used during the bike painting process too !

PS, +1 Hoas, that was the topic that originally spawned this thread. Intel + Minix Ohnonot.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-08 22:03:09)

BLizgreat! · 2017-11-08 21:55:24

Also yeah, Google Inc does dump a lot of $ and resources into supporting gnu/Linux, the kernel etc so forth. BUT since they heavily harness and utilize such software powering much of their backend and save a MASSIVE amount doing so and getting better software for doing so. Kinda seems perfectly logical they'd do that.

My guess grand total of Google servers running Minix ? Ummmmm = 0/zero but could be wrong for all I know.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-08 21:56:28)

ohnonot · 2017-11-09 20:18:42

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic.php?id=4329
Please search the boards before posting...

oops, looks like BLiz starts a new thread for every thought that pops into his/her head... sorry about that.

probably has something to do with why that tanenbaum person got all that money
Please don't do that, the information is publicly available:
https://www.pcworld.com/article/163890/article.html
Your comment looks dangerously like FUD, did pendrachen's diatribe not sink in yet? ]:D

what, the one about increasing one's post count? look who's talking.

anyhow, you omitted the last part of my post, no doubt to make your reply appear wittier.

no fud, just common sense and a question.
"the information" does not mention intel at all. that in itself could mean a number of things.
but i stand corrected in any case.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2017-11-09 20:22:25

ohnonot wrote:

the one about increasing one's post count? look who's talking.

Ouch! Touché

I actually meant his point about researching before posting

BLizgreat! · 2017-11-09 23:21:43

Sure Ohnonot ! Blame the babbler, they all do !

Messing around again. This was a gag thread from the beginning but do think it's interesting to know Minix is an actual install option and all the resources people shared to flesh it out. Seen one resource cite that Linus Torvald's first build attempt he used Minix. Trying to figure out why such interest in it now, to the tune of millions ? Embedded technology ?

As apparently the thing must be tiny while still capable of much if it's used in running Intel's firmware software at the lowest levels ? Things that make you go hmmmmmm but you're still too lazy to bother googling about.

Funny so gotta post it and may as well add it here rather than starting a new thread and all the mass confusion it apparently causes *cough.
Joke inspired from a user's comments in another forum.
Hey guys, have I mentioned my renewed interest in coming out with a distro of my own ? Wait for it .....
...
..
Introducing Tardnix, a special gnu/Linux operating system for "Special" people everywhere !

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-09 23:27:36)

martix · 2017-11-17 02:54:04

ohnonot wrote:

i'm surprised nobody yet mentioned that minix is what intel processors use for their "management engine"

Indeed, indeed...

Head_on_a_Stick · 2017-11-17 07:08:20

Political side note: Intel can use (parts of) the Minix source code in their closed source IME software because of the more permissive BSD-style licence used by that operating system, this would not be allowed by the GPL.

BLizgreat! · 2017-11-19 01:12:29

^ Politics eh, ummmm, off-topic, move along, am forced to Reportcha. Lol ... messing around, though again in this ya's actually wrong Hoas. Depending upon which GPL anyway. Also ALL open source, since the source code is openly available xyz-for-profit can see exactly how it does something, then come up with a similar way to do it or even snatch it and compile it into proprietary and without reverse engineering it successfully, who could even say they'd infringed on blahblahblah license.

As again ... reality how some think, how it appears on many legal documents or whatever and reality how it actually works in my view/experience are TOTALLY different things. Actually I also totally get where Intel + others are coming from when they say, nope you can't have access to review our software. Many legit reasons (Sec or anti-competition)and really don't think anyone could honestly claim Intel isn't the best chip maker on the planet, not and have any reason to keep a straight face saying it, someone else comes along with something that shows promise. Then Intel will likely whip out it's checkbook and say how much to buy this ? Here ya go ... keep the change.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-19 01:15:11)

BLizgreat! · 2017-11-19 01:26:53

Well last time I checked there's only two real competitors for best chip maker on the planet and they tend to jockey back in forth Intel/AMD. One may offer some advantage over the other, in/at a given time, even if that's just pricing or whatever. Still tend to think Intel in terms of overall quality is it. Though if you can get a comparable chip from AMD, for 20-30% less, at slightly lower performance or whatever, then yep, I'd buy AMD in such a situation, shrugs.

Also note, am kinda talking out of turn here, as it's been a long time since even checked in on the Intel vs AMD front, much less looked for anyone on the fringes planning any real attempt to get in on the cpu-market. Mobile, server ... etc, whichever. Still think they have some real problems and obstacles to get past to even come close to touching Intel/AMD, even if they aren't bought out.
Not like Intel/AMD don't have the experience/expertise and MASSIVE manufacuring, marketing etc resources to bring to bare should some up and comer, come messing around with their market. That's the legit stuff, I won't even get into all the blackhat a major Corporation can employ and many of them consider SOP now.
But yeah, somebody didn't give Minix millions of bucks without some expectation of return on it. Somebody has some profit-driven plan in action. That's just basic common sense and realistic thinking, shrugs.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-19 01:29:32)

Head_on_a_Stick · 2017-11-19 01:37:39

BLizgreat! wrote:

ya's actually wrong Hoas. Depending upon which GPL anyway

That's why I said "GPL" rather than "LGPL" and linked to v3

ALL open source, since the source code is openly available xyz-for-profit can see exactly how it does something, then come up with a similar way to do it or even snatch it and compile it into proprietary and without reverse engineering it successfully, who could even say they'd infringed on blahblahblah license.

Although what you say is technically possible I really don't think that any credible commercial company would risk a lawsuit for copyleft infringement, especially when there is so much BSD-licenced code of good quality available.

Anyway, you are quite right that I am pushing the rules with this diversion so I will stop now.

BLizgreat! · 2017-11-19 01:42:07

^ Dang it, I'm wrong, about you being wrong, in some ways anyway. I HATE WHEN THIS HAPPENS !!!! Ya know, am messing around, that scenario I outlined happens more than we know. Again though the main thing imo, is being able to see exactly how that approach to software achieves it's goal, how it's implemented. Nothing illegal about someone with the skills replicating it. Look at open source, think hmmmmm, I'dve never friggin thought of doing it, thataway, thanks open source developers ! SNATCH*

DANG IT one more then shutting up on this too. Also GPL many versions thereof, don't restrict use of the code for outright commericial uses, nor reselling of it, xyz-person utilizing such, could even likely hire a lawyer(or 42) have them drawup an overview of which open source code has been used by which Corp and even minor changes that party did to it. Such could be made selectively compiliant with any GPL requirements, while any proprietary in-house stuff nope. You still can't see or review it, we paid for it and it's fully proprietary tyvm. However, this part or that one is open source and you're welcome to use it.
Don't even get me started on law and the legal system dammit ! Just thinking about it makes me wanna puke.

Gotta do it, ya have any more questions, talk to our lawyers over @ Dowee, Shaftum and Howe. LMAO, n Vll!

Gotta-do-take2: Or the other law firm on retainer, Robbem, Blind & Runn. LLP.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-19 02:05:08)

martix · 2017-11-19 13:10:57

The best notebook currently available without this minix/management engine stuff is - I believe - the Lenovo T400s (after flashing Libreboot).

An ancient folk tale: In older chips there was no ME. Suddenly, someone must have thought: Why don't we access to ALL the machines with our chips? An other guy said: But that machine belongs to the user whoever bought it. Such an access would be like a backdoor! <- This second guy was immediately fired. The first guy remembered there was that obscure academic OS called minix. He looked at the license: Wonderful, we can make proprietary code out of it! Let's strip it down and ship it together with our chips! We'll hide it behind the name Management Engine and our marketing guys will say it's for maintenance. It took a long time till the public figured out the details.

Btw there are recent developments regarding open source chips.

Last edited by martix (2017-11-19 14:01:55)

#1 2017-11-07 17:07:42

BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

#2 2017-11-07 19:50:30

Re: BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

#3 2017-11-08 10:09:29

Re: BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

#4 2017-11-08 14:12:05

Re: BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

#5 2017-11-08 20:11:45

Re: BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

#6 2017-11-08 20:17:03

Re: BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

#7 2017-11-08 21:03:42

Re: BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

#8 2017-11-08 21:25:40

Re: BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

#9 2017-11-08 21:48:59

Re: BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

#10 2017-11-08 21:55:24

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#11 2017-11-09 20:18:42

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#12 2017-11-09 20:22:25

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#13 2017-11-09 23:21:43

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#14 2017-11-17 02:54:04

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#15 2017-11-17 07:08:20

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#16 2017-11-19 01:12:29

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#17 2017-11-19 01:26:53

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#18 2017-11-19 01:37:39

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#19 2017-11-19 01:42:07

Re: BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

#20 2017-11-19 13:10:57

Re: BEHOLD the POWER of MINIX !!! :)

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