You are not logged in.

#1 2015-11-02 02:34:21

Horizon_Brave
Operating System: Linux-Nettrix
Registered: 2015-10-18
Posts: 1,473

General X11/X.org Questions

Hey everyone,

**For the mods, feel free to move this to the appropriate forum!**

So in my quest to becoming more 'zen' with linux, I've come across a few things I never really understood...

1. I have an MSI mobo, with an MSI graphics card. All of the documenation I'm reading on X11, shows that it has opensource support from AMD/ATI, Intel, and Nvidia. ( and some more here: xorg-drivers )
MSI isn't listed anywhere on any of those packages. Would X11 not work then? Furthermore, I'm actually running BunsenLabs in a VM. (oracle's virtual box).
When I do a lspci I get this for my video card:

VGA compatible controller: InnoTek Systemberatung GmbH VirtualBox Graphics Adapter

This "innotek" adapter isn't listed on that listed either, and I know I didn't download any extra drivers, so how does X11 know how to use these cards? Are they using drivers from other manufacturers?


2.   For the above, I've noticed that people often post a /etc/X11/xorg.conf...my install doesn't have this file. Am I missing something or is it not needed?

3. When you install and run linux without a GUI, or any graphical desktop, is the shell that you're presented with at login, is that a terminal emulator? Or are terminal emulators only used during graphical sessions?

4.   I use the guake terminal emulator program. But when I do an echo $TERM  it says i'm using xterm...is guake underneath, using the xterm configs or something? When I change the $TERM variable to 'guake', it works, but I lose some functionality...

5.  On my terminal emulator (guake), I can copy and paste things by right clicking. This works in vi, nano, on the command line itself... is this copy/paste functionality a product of the terminal emulator?

I know this is a lot, but I thank you all for any support and answers you can provide!
If I think of anything else that stumps me, I may append this..   big_smile


"I have not failed, I have found 10,000 ways that will not work" -Edison

Offline

#2 2015-11-02 05:03:40

tknomanzr
BL Die Hard
From: Around the Bend
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,057

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

1. Looks like a virtualized driver to me. It would be hard to tell what the actual driver was until you put it on actual metal.
2. /etc/X11/xorg.conf is not an entire necessity. Some hardware drivers, such as intel don't use one. Nvidia and intel need one. Nvidia writes one out via nvidia-xconfig. However, nvidia-settings does other stuff that doesn't appear to affect /etc/x11/xorg.conf. For instance, I am running 3 monitors and only one of them actually appears in that listing. I am unsure where nvidia is storing the rest of its setting, partly because stuff is working, therefor I have not gone chasing after it.
3. It is actually called the console and does provide a shell, typically bash for debian based distros.
4. Not entirely familiar with guake but it's a good bet it is implementing an xterm style terminal as opposed to say sakura which uses vte. There are other, supposedly more modern terminal emulators on the horizon but last time I checked them, weren't really ready for production yet. Another thing, I suppose is a lot of them have an everything but the kitchen sink mentality. I am not sure what adding more lines of code would actually do to the speed of a terminal. However, it does seem that the lighter alternatives seem to be much quicker.
5. Yes, conditionally. It is implemented differently in different terminal apps. Some use CTRL + SHIFT + C,V,or X for cut, copy and paste, so as to avoid keybinding collisions. urxvt has an entirely different implementation based on the mouse that I never seem to remember and have to adjust too any time I use it.

Offline

#3 2015-11-02 05:44:03

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 7,941
Website

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

#3 What you get when you log in without a graphical environment (usually X) is a terminal (or console), usually numbered tty1. You can switch to other terminals tty2, tty3... by pressing Fn+2 etc. Historically these would have been physically separate terminals, maybe in other buildings, connected to a huge mainframe computer. Windows that emulate such terminals in an X session are called terminal emulators. smile

The shell is an interface between users and the system, that runs on a terminal.


...elevator in the Brain Hotel, broken down but just as well...
( a boring Japan blog (currently paused), idle Twitterings and GitStuff )

Introduction to the Bunsenlabs Lithium Desktop

Online

#4 2015-11-02 07:24:09

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 5,460

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

Horizon_Brave wrote:

1. I have an MSI mobo, with an MSI graphics card. All of the documenation I'm reading on X11, shows that it has opensource support from AMD/ATI, Intel, and Nvidia. ( and some more here: xorg-drivers )
MSI isn't listed anywhere on any of those packages. Would X11 not work then? Furthermore, I'm actually running BunsenLabs in a VM. (oracle's virtual box).
When I do a lspci I get this for my video card:

VGA compatible controller: InnoTek Systemberatung GmbH VirtualBox Graphics Adapter

This "innotek" adapter isn't listed on that listed either, and I know I didn't download any extra drivers, so how does X11 know how to use these cards? Are they using drivers from other manufacturers?

so first of all, X is the base of all graphical desktops in the linux world. that includes bunsenlabs.

MSI graphic cards are usually a clone of nvidia cards.

the lspci output you posted is from a virtual machine.
that's why it's called a virtual machine, it creates virtual hardware, that the operating system that is installed into it can address.


"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular. Where it’s safe to say what’s on your mind, especially when everyone disagrees." -- Adlai Stevenson II

Give to COVAX! Here or here. (explanation)

Offline

#5 2015-11-02 09:22:46

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 8,759
Website

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

Run these two commands and post the output of the second one please:

sudo update-pciids
lspci -knn|grep -iA2 'vga\|3d'

“Et ignotas animum dimittit in artes.” — Ovid, Metamorphoses, VIII., 18.

Forum Rules   •   How to report a problem   •   Software that rocks

Offline

#6 2015-11-02 15:12:13

hhh
Meep!
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 11,689
Website

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

I didn't respond to this last night (EDT) because it was late, but I was confused from the get-go... what are you currently running on this computer?

As stated, you can't test for hardware compatibility in a virtual machine. You'll get a much better idea on how BL will behave with your hardware if you download hydrogen RC1, transfer it to a USB and boot into Live mode, if that's what you're asking.

Offline

#7 2015-11-03 04:15:56

Horizon_Brave
Operating System: Linux-Nettrix
Registered: 2015-10-18
Posts: 1,473

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

Thanks for the responses everyone!


Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Run these two commands and post the output of the second one please:

sudo update-pciids
lspci -knn|grep -iA2 'vga\|3d'

I got this in response:

00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: InnoTek Systemberatung GmbH VirtualBox Graphics Adapter [80ee:beef]
00:03.0 Ethernet controller [0200]: Intel Corporation 82540EM Gigabit Ethernet Controller [8086:100e] (rev 02)
	Subsystem: Intel Corporation PRO/1000 MT Desktop Adapter [8086:001e]
kingghidorah@kingghidorah:~$ 



hhh wrote:

I didn't respond to this last night (EDT) because it was late, but I was confused from the get-go... what are you currently running on this computer?

As stated, you can't test for hardware compatibility in a virtual machine. You'll get a much better idea on how BL will behave with your hardware if you download hydrogen RC1, transfer it to a USB and boot into Live mode, if that's what you're asking.

I'm currently running on actual hardware, windows 10. My actual mobo and graphics card is MSI.


MSI graphic cards are usually a clone of nvidia cards.

the lspci output you posted is from a virtual machine.
that's why it's called a virtual machine, it creates virtual hardware, that the operating system that is installed into it can address.


Ohh of course, I feel like facepalming myself. You are correct, when I install my MSI graphics card, I installed the nvidia drivers... So in reality, there's only Nvidia, and AMD that make actual drivers, and most of the graphics chipset makers just license their drivers?


I guess my question still remains is what is it that's interacting with the drivers? Is it the X11 software? What's this Mesa drivers thing I'm hearing about? Is Mesa strictly needed for gaming?  There's so many moving parts to X...

Last edited by Horizon_Brave (2015-11-03 04:23:01)


"I have not failed, I have found 10,000 ways that will not work" -Edison

Offline

#8 2015-11-03 06:58:31

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 5,460

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

Horizon_Brave wrote:

I guess my question still remains is what is it that's interacting with the drivers? Is it the X11 software? What's this Mesa drivers thing I'm hearing about? Is Mesa strictly needed for gaming?  There's so many moving parts to X...

that is something i'm asking myself.
a totally "felt" explanation:
there's the driver itself, it communicates with the cards and ensures that it works. many drivers exist for the Xserver (Xorg) only, so the text console uses a different one, maybe the fallback driver.

there are special parts on the card that can provide hardware acceleration - afaiu, it means the application (game, media player) communicates with the card directly, instead of going through the operating system (Xorg).

the fallback drivers work on a maximum of devices. used to be vesa, that's superseded on archlinux by i don't know what. they ensure that you have something to look at at all, until you get the proper driver working.

[ disclaimer: some of this info is probably wrong. please, whoever notices it, chime in and correct it. ]


"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular. Where it’s safe to say what’s on your mind, especially when everyone disagrees." -- Adlai Stevenson II

Give to COVAX! Here or here. (explanation)

Offline

#9 2015-11-03 07:29:39

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 8,759
Website

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

Horizon_Brave wrote:

What's this Mesa drivers thing I'm hearing about?

Mesa is an open source 3D computer graphics library that provides a generic OpenGL implementation for rendering three-dimensional graphics on multiple platforms.

https://wiki.debian.org/Mesa

The Mesa drivers use your graphics card for hardware-accelerated 3D rendering; if they are not present (highly unlikely as they are a dependency of the xorg package) then any 3D rendering is performed by the CPU which slows things down considerably.


“Et ignotas animum dimittit in artes.” — Ovid, Metamorphoses, VIII., 18.

Forum Rules   •   How to report a problem   •   Software that rocks

Offline

#10 2015-11-03 22:20:16

Horizon_Brave
Operating System: Linux-Nettrix
Registered: 2015-10-18
Posts: 1,473

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

Okay, I have a follow up question! Let's say you have some crap video card.. from some unknown company.. They have some backwards driver that's not written to work with x11... and x11 has no idea about it.. what will it do? Will it load a generic driver for you and hope for the best?

Also... How does x11 search for the graphics card driver that you need. So let's say again, you have a lesser known graphics card. Is there a stored library of drivers installed on BunsenLab (or any version of linux) that has a list of all drivers? OR, does the card present the driver to x11 in software upon install?  It seems like storing a massive list of drivers on linux is a huge waste of space since you'll probably only need to use one or two of them...


"I have not failed, I have found 10,000 ways that will not work" -Edison

Offline

#11 2015-11-03 22:25:00

tknomanzr
BL Die Hard
From: Around the Bend
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,057

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

Trying to remember back to the way back when I actually had a video card that wasn't recognized by Linux. Essentially, you will get a framebuffer for text display and maybe a 640 x 480 256 color display. I wouldn't quote me on that without checking it, however, I am pretty sure that nearly any video card you would care to pick would at least give you a framebuffer. Note, that has been so long ago, that it is nearly impossible to pick a card without a driver these days. Now when you get to the newest and shiniest, you end up in a different ballpark. I am tracking Sid at present, mostly because I have to use the Nvidia beta driver out of experimental to get all the bells and whistles for my Titanx working.

Offline

#12 2015-11-03 22:32:15

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 8,759
Website

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

tknomanzr wrote:

I am tracking Sid at present, mostly because I have to use the Nvidia beta driver out of experimental to get all the bells and whistles for my Titanx working.

It should be possible to install the NVIDIA drivers from the Debian experimental repositories directly in jessie.
https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers#Drivers
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo … =787582#10

@OP: udev checks your hardware and loads the correct driver.
https://wiki.debian.org/udev


“Et ignotas animum dimittit in artes.” — Ovid, Metamorphoses, VIII., 18.

Forum Rules   •   How to report a problem   •   Software that rocks

Offline

#13 2015-11-03 22:54:09

tknomanzr
BL Die Hard
From: Around the Bend
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,057

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

I am not sure I want to back-grade at this point. I am not entirely certain but when I was attempting to get three monitors working in Nvidia, at one point, I figured I have better get sid caught up on upgrades. One of the packages it upgraded was x-server-xorg. This in turn required me to reinstall the Nvidia beta driver. When I got the whole thing back up again, three monitors were working. Prior to that neither nvidia-settings nor xrandr could see the third monitor (which is coming off a DP port but connecting to an hdmi tv port via a passive converter cable). Something fixed me up for three monitors without a ton of headaches. So given that, yeah I'll stay tracking Sid for awhile on this machine. It just bugs me because its one of those cases where I know how I got it working but I'm not really sure why it works now.

Last edited by tknomanzr (2015-11-03 22:54:38)

Offline

#14 2015-11-04 06:59:43

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 5,460

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

Horizon_Brave wrote:

video card.. from some unknown company.. They have some backwards driver that's not written to work with x11...

often the companies do not writer drivers for linux, it's linux developers.

and x11 has no idea about it.. what will it do? Will it load a generic driver for you and hope for the best?

i don't actually know.
however, there exists a generic driver that can be loaded in such cases. i think it's more up to the distro installer to make these detections/decisions.

How does x11 search for the graphics card driver that you need.

it doesn't.
it uses the graphic driver you (or the installer) tell it to use.

Is there a stored library of drivers installed on BunsenLab (or any version of linux) that has a list of all drivers?

i think there is on the installer.

It seems like storing a massive list of drivers on linux is a huge waste of space

storing all the drivers would be; storing a list with parameters necessary to recognize and assign the sorrect one - isn't.

even so, many distros come with many drivers preinstalled, some of which are never used.
but have a sense of proportion here! a skillfuully compressed full length movie is 700MB - a photo taken with a recent camera is, what, 25MB in raw format (just one!) - a basic graphic driver is maybe 1MB, or less. having 10 or 20 of those around just in case isn't so much.

also consider:
- manufacturers aren't interested in making obscure, non-compatible gpus
- each driver is able to serve a whole range of models

Last edited by ohnonot (2015-11-04 07:01:41)


"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular. Where it’s safe to say what’s on your mind, especially when everyone disagrees." -- Adlai Stevenson II

Give to COVAX! Here or here. (explanation)

Offline

#15 2015-11-04 16:44:14

Horizon_Brave
Operating System: Linux-Nettrix
Registered: 2015-10-18
Posts: 1,473

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

ohnonot wrote:

also consider:
- manufacturers aren't interested in making obscure, non-compatible gpus
- each driver is able to serve a whole range of models

This is actually the the 'aha' moment I needed. I was stuck in the mode of thinking that like every device would have a specific device driver catered towards it. But yea makes sense that multiple devices are sharing driver software.

One last question before I think I can declare my curiosity satiated...

1. For software packages like tint2, lightdm etc... those are packages that require x11 to be up and running. But do they need specific driver support as well? For example, if you have x11 running, it picks up my video card, loads the proper kernel module for it... And now lightdm loads... does lightdm also need to be 'aware' of the graphics card and check to see if that module is loaded? Or does it only see that x11 is loaded, and just assumes everything is A-OK? 

Basically do the applications that depend on larger applications, require to interface with the driver, or is the interfacing done exclusively by the larger "parent" application?


"I have not failed, I have found 10,000 ways that will not work" -Edison

Offline

#16 2015-11-04 17:35:37

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 5,460

Re: General X11/X.org Questions

Horizon_Brave wrote:

For software packages like tint2, lightdm etc... those are packages that require x11 to be up and running. But do they need specific driver support as well?

no.

Basically do the applications that depend on larger applications, require to interface with the driver, or is the interfacing done exclusively by the larger "parent" application?

this.
afaiu, the "larger parent" is sometimes X, sometimes the kernel.

i wouldn't say exclusively, though. i think it is possible to address the card directly, or make use of features supplied by certain graphic cards (CUDA...). but this you have to research without my help, i am scraping my limits by even attempting to answer that.


"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular. Where it’s safe to say what’s on your mind, especially when everyone disagrees." -- Adlai Stevenson II

Give to COVAX! Here or here. (explanation)

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB