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#1 2017-04-26 12:11:15

dmontaine
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Registered: 2017-02-14
Posts: 9

Devuan Jessie

I have been testing the RC for Devuan Jessie (Debian without systemd).  So far it looks very solid.  Would love to see Bunsen Labs available on a Devuan base.  I don't know anything about making a distro - but I'm guessing it might not be too difficult as Devuan is Debian with only the modifications necessary to remove the dependencies on systemd.

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#2 2017-04-26 15:36:01

earlybird
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Registered: 2015-12-16
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Re: Devuan Jessie

dmontaine wrote:

I don't know anything about making a distro - but I'm guessing it might not be too difficult as Devuan is Debian with only the modifications necessary to remove the dependencies on systemd.

No need for a distro. As BL is structured so that it is init-system agnostic and just an addition to standard Debian, you can just include our repositories https://www.bunsenlabs.org/repositories.html bunsen-hydrogen (and if you want jessie-backports too) on your Devuan system and install the BL packages → done.

PS. Also, because Debian is already a solid base, we won't move away from the Debian base because we want to delegate important system architecture choices and –work such as this to the Debian developers. Additionally, some people like running systemd and some features it introduces to the system (like systemd-networkd, for which there is no good equivalent right now [although it might only depend on udev, IDK]).

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#3 2017-04-26 17:50:18

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2015-09-29
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Re: Devuan Jessie

dmontaine wrote:

Would love to see Bunsen Labs available on a Devuan base.

You could try STAR:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/linnix/

That project is also a continuation of the #! legacy, just like BunsenLabs, and it is already based on Devuan  smile


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#4 2017-04-26 23:48:17

cpoakes
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Registered: 2016-12-02
Posts: 108

Re: Devuan Jessie

earlybird wrote:

No need for a distro. As BL is structured so that it is init-system agnostic and just an addition to standard Debian, you can just include our repositories https://www.bunsenlabs.org/repositories.html bunsen-hydrogen (and if you want jessie-backports too) on your Devuan system and install the BL packages → done.

Mostly. BL is init agnostic but does have at least one systemd dependency. The python script bl-exit, uses dbus and the org.freedesktop.login1 service to manage suspending, rebooting, and exiting a BL session. This service is provided by the systemd-logind daemon of the systemd package. This BL feature only works on a sysvinit system if you install systemd and the systemd-shim to get systemd-logind.

Devuan documents package loginkit to replace logind, but it appears to be a non-functional stub.

BL Devs: Please note package bunsen-utilities is missing a dependency on systemd.

Last edited by cpoakes (2017-04-26 23:49:54)

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#5 2017-04-27 06:14:15

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 5,616
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Re: Devuan Jessie

cpoakes wrote:

BL is init agnostic but does have at least one systemd dependency. The python script bl-exit, uses dbus and the org.freedesktop.login1 service to manage suspending, rebooting, and exiting a BL session. This service is provided by the systemd-logind daemon of the systemd package. This BL feature only works on a sysvinit system if you install systemd and the systemd-shim to get systemd-logind.

I have had close to zero involvement in the development of bl-exit, but I did remember a contribution from your good self which had the specific aim of making the poweroff/reboot/etc actions independent of systemd, ie this GitHUb commit to bunsen-exit, which was later moved into bunsen-utilities: Use dbus-send for systemd-agnostic dbus calls

As far as I can tell, that is also using dbus and the org.freedesktop.login1 service. Has the current code changed in some other way so as to destroy the systemd agnosticism you introduced then?

Last edited by johnraff (2017-04-27 06:15:50)


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#6 2017-04-27 12:22:26

cpoakes
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Registered: 2016-12-02
Posts: 108

Re: Devuan Jessie

The bl-exit code still meets the original init-agnostic design goals. But systemd subsumed more than just the init system; being init-agnostic is not the same as being systemd independent. I advocated being init-agnostic from the beginning and participated in coding bl-exit to be init-agnostic. I eliminated the systemd "systemctl" calls for power management in favor of the dbus service.

Systemd subsumed the udev and logind projects, making systemd-logind the only Debian source of the init-agnostic org.freedesktop.login1 service (irony noted). The systemd-shim was developed to re-enable independent operation of systemd-logind and this service (among others). 

While bl-exit could implement power management without logind it would require: 1) selecting commands specific to each init system (irony also noted), and 2) loss of logind features restricting how power management is handled by non-root users. Using systemd-logind (natively or via the shim) to source the org.freedesktop.login1 service remains the best compromise. When and if other logind replacements are implemented, bl-exit should just work (or at most need an alias to an alternate service name). But until then, bunsen-utilities is missing systemd as a dependency.

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#7 2017-04-27 14:20:31

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 5,616
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Re: Devuan Jessie

^So if I understand you correctly, while bl-exit as it now stands allows the system to be started by any init system, it still requires systemd to be installed in order to work?

Maybe it's time for a complete rethink of bl-exit, or at any rate, separating it off into its own package.

BTW bunsen-utilities is already missing a "Recommends:" of systemd because of the bl-notify-failure systemd service bundled with the notify-broadcast script. It needn't be a hard dependency because the service is only an enhancement, the lack of which can't really be said to break the whole package, but thank you for incidentally reminding me!

Last edited by johnraff (2017-04-27 14:23:38)


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#8 2017-04-28 00:26:44

cpoakes
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Registered: 2016-12-02
Posts: 108

Re: Devuan Jessie

johnraff wrote:

^So if I understand you correctly, while bl-exit as it now stands allows the system to be started by any init system, it still requires systemd to be installed in order to work?

Maybe it's time for a complete rethink of bl-exit, or at any rate, separating it off into its own package.

Yes. bl-exit is init-system agnostic and requires systemd (with systemd-shim under sysv init) to work. Separate packaging with a systemd (or eventually another logind) dependency might be apropriate.

Edit: For Debianistas unfamiliar with the jessie sysvinit option, using the systemd-shim with systemd to get logind and udevd is common. It is the structure chosen by LMDE, MX, and others.

Last edited by cpoakes (2017-04-28 05:15:48)

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#9 2017-04-29 09:02:41

o9000
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Registered: 2015-10-24
Posts: 398
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Re: Devuan Jessie

Why not just create a group for the graphical users, then edit /etc/sudoers to allow the group to execute /sbin/halt, /sbin/reboot, /sbin/poweroff with sudo without password? Are those commands no longer working under systemd?

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#10 2017-04-29 10:20:32

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
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Re: Devuan Jessie

o9000 wrote:

/sbin/halt, /sbin/reboot, /sbin/poweroff [...] Are those commands no longer working under systemd?

Those commands are symlinks to /bin/systemctl and can be used without root privileges under systemd.


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#11 2017-04-29 10:35:47

o9000
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Re: Devuan Jessie

That's good. Then for any other init system, one could add them to sudoers and they would work just the same.

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#12 2017-04-29 10:40:48

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Devuan Jessie

^ Yes, that's what I did when I changed to runit-init in my stretch system.


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#13 2017-04-29 13:59:19

Steve
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Registered: 2017-01-03
Posts: 642

Re: Devuan Jessie

machinectl shell

??

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#14 2017-04-29 14:28:44

Sector11
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From: 77345 ¡#
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 5,459

Re: Devuan Jessie

I'm out the door, but wouldn't any of these still work in Bunsen:

		<separator label="Hanger"/>
		<item label="Punch Out">
			<action name="Execute">
				<command>terminator -e &quot;kill -9 -1&quot;</command>
			</action>
		</item>
		<item label="Re-Boot">
			<action name="Execute">
				<command>sudo /sbin/reboot</command>
			</action>
		</item>
		<item label="Power Down">
			<action name="Execute">
				<command>sudo /sbin/poweroff</command>
			</action>
		</item>

First one is LogOut


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#15 2017-04-30 01:53:49

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 5,616
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Re: Devuan Jessie

o9000 wrote:

Why not just create a group for the graphical users, then edit /etc/sudoers to allow the group to execute /sbin/halt, /sbin/reboot, /sbin/poweroff with sudo without password?

I was thinking the exact same thing - back to the 90's. cool

But hang on a moment, I'll start a new dedicated thread for bl-exit, so this one can stay on topic.

HERE: https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic.php?id=3650

Last edited by johnraff (2017-04-30 02:47:46)


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#16 2017-05-01 02:26:18

cpoakes
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Registered: 2016-12-02
Posts: 108

Re: Devuan Jessie

Full circle: weren't poweroff, reboot, pm-suspend used in statler? Using these sudo commands enables a remotely logged in user running an Xsession to poweroff/reboot/suspend the system, something logind goes to great lengths to avoid (local user only; no other users logged in). Bad news for true multiuser systems.

Last edited by cpoakes (2017-05-01 02:27:39)

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#17 2017-05-01 03:18:53

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 5,616
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Re: Devuan Jessie

@cpoakes if you have any comments or suggestions about bl-exit specifically, rather than the general topic of using BL in Devuan, could you take a look at the dedicated thread? https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic.php?id=3650


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#18 2017-05-01 16:11:21

BLizgreat!
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Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,018

Re: Devuan Jessie

Question @ Hoas how has runit been working out ? Tis on the dork2do list. smile

As for Devuan guess I've made my opinions clear, though +1 Cpoake's too, distros stand/fall on need, niche, merits. All part of the open source process I guess. A process thankfully far beyond me. smile

May be some I don't approve of for whatever reason(s) but it'll all come out in the wash. smile

Vll!

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-05-01 16:24:46)

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#19 2017-05-01 17:07:43

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 8,759
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Re: Devuan Jessie

BLizgreat! wrote:

@ Hoas how has runit been working out ?

So-so.

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo … bug=861536

hmm

I don't know how to use the logging and it won't `startx` from the TTY so I have to use LightDM, apart from those issues it seems to work well.


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#20 2017-05-01 17:19:19

o9000
tint2 developer
From: Network Neighborhood
Registered: 2015-10-24
Posts: 398
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Re: Devuan Jessie

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

I don't know how to use the logging

You mean system-wide logging? Or how to log the output of runit-managed servers?

For the former, you need to start rsyslogd at startup.

For the latter, you need to create a subdirectory called "log" with an executable script called "run":

#!/bin/sh -e
exec 2>&1

exec chpst -u nobody logger -t "some-tag"

where some-tag should probably be the name of the service.

Last edited by o9000 (2017-05-01 17:19:59)

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#21 2017-05-01 17:21:43

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
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Re: Devuan Jessie

^ Fantastic, thank you very much!


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#22 2017-05-06 09:35:59

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,018

Re: Devuan Jessie

And thanks Hoas, will eventually get around to dorking with runit, though when who knows.

Until then I can count on you to boldly go where many other techies won't and live precariously through your gnu/nix adventures. smile


Vll!

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#23 2017-05-29 15:03:54

bigbenaugust
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From: unc.edu / the 919 / KIGX
Registered: 2017-05-20
Posts: 147

Re: Devuan Jessie

So how does it end up working when one installs Devuan on a machine and adds the BL repos? Is it just a matter of "Don't use the exit button and everything will be fine"? That is the impression I got from the above.

Now that Devuan has gone 1.0, I am thinking about slapping it on a machine and I can't think of a better minimalist desktop than the BL Openbox setup with a bunch of stuff disabled. smile


--Ben
BL / MX / Raspbian... and a whole bunch of RHEL boxes. :)

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#24 2017-05-29 15:24:37

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 8,759
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Re: Devuan Jessie

bigbenaugust wrote:

So how does it end up working when one installs Devuan on a machine and adds the BL repos?

I seem to remember that dependency problems stopped any installation from our repositories, I think udev was the major sticking point but it was a while ago and with one of the RC editions rather than the recent release.


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#25 2017-05-30 13:38:39

bigbenaugust
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From: unc.edu / the 919 / KIGX
Registered: 2017-05-20
Posts: 147

Re: Devuan Jessie

My first Devuan install seems to have choked somewhere between the boot loader install and the disk encryption.

That installer is... a little rough for someone used to the Debian Installer.


--Ben
BL / MX / Raspbian... and a whole bunch of RHEL boxes. :)

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