Wayland and BunsenLabs

johnraff · 2024-02-01 07:18:03

This is a sort of branch from @malm's thread about wayland and labwc, with a focus on what - if anything - BunsenLabs could be doing wrt wayland right now. I have a suggestion below, but it's very tentative and lots of input from BL users and devs will be very welcome.

@hhh has already posted on malm's thread:

hhh wrote:

Awesome that @malm and other developers (sway) are working on Wayland compatibility, but nobody needs to panic about switching for several years yet. It's still "kicking the tires", "not feature complete". Meaning "not ready".

It depends on "ready for what?", which @malm already discussed in an earlier post, but while I was quite ready to let it all be, and wait another couple of Debian releases before even starting to think about it, what triggered my interest was that labwc is now in the Debian Trixie repository. Add to that, the default Debian desktop is Gnome on Wayland, and some other big DEs have been Wayland for a while now, so it's getting harder to ignore.

Back in 2009 when I discovered CrunchBang, some of Ubuntu's new users found it too heavy for their machines and were looking to set up symple systems with a window manager + apps. My guru at that time was K. Mandla... But then, Corenominal's CrunchBang turned up and did pretty much what I had been trying to do with Openbox, but all set up, configured nicely, and good looking to boot.

Now, what I'm wondering is if there might be a need for a distrolette that does something like that on Wayland - for people who are eager to move into the future but don't feel up to diving into all the configuration right off. How about a bare-bones but good-looking system, set up ready to use out of the box so people could base their system on it?

So, could this be a meaningful path forwards for BunsenLabs? These two versions could go side-by-side:

1) X-based BL Carbon, basically the same as Boron + bugfixes, with nice new graphics. But no new system features - we'd need all our dev resources for 2).

2) Wayland-based Carbon, same graphics as 1) (no problem with wallpaper, themes and icons I hope?) + minimal user interface: a panel (tint2 might or might not work), file manager, terminal emulator + whatever other basic utilities we are able to migrate from 1).

I think 1) should keep our general X-as-long-as-it's-available users happy, while 2) has a chance of being attractive to people who are not current BL users but want a simple platform to build their own wayland system on, with at least some of the tricky stuff already done. Something like how the original CrunchBang was for Ubuntu.

I don't know of anywhere else a simple wayland setup is on offer - it could give us a new mission.

But as I said above, this is only a very tentative idea. Do people think BL as it is is pretty much feature complete, or is there more work that needs to be done? Disagreement is most welcome at this point.

WRT version 2) How would this impact on @malm's labwc project? Will it bring in welcome attention and new ideas, or a distracting flood of questions from the BL users and devs? @malm if you read this, do you think it's too early for a bunch of non-programmers to start using labwc?

Last edited by johnraff (2024-02-01 08:04:20)

hhh · 2024-02-01 07:32:11

Thanks for starting this thread, John. Quite a bit to digest here.

I will reiterate.. Wine is not Wayland ready. Steam is not Wayland ready. Many applications are not Wayland ready.

That said, I'm using GNOME, arguably the most Wayland ready DE so far. And I'm using it on X11, but that's because of application development. When that catches up, I'll be all in. Screen tearing on Wayland is not an issue, as far as I can tell. Just one advantage example.

Actually, I don't have any other examples. Why is xorg being executed? Pun intended.

hhh · 2024-02-01 07:48:59

Off topic, completely irrelevant, but I think I have a nasty attitude the way Linus Torvalds does. It's a terrible analogy, I didn't develop a kernel or git or some kind of aqualung application, but I do relate to this...

https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/ker … 04208.html

This is it. The typos due to pure rage. You can argue that pure rage is harmful, I will argue that it's the closest thing to pure love one can achieve, but whatever...

Linus wrote:

Because this whole "I make up problems, and then I write overly
complicated crap code to solve them" has to stop,.

johnraff · 2024-02-01 08:13:14

I guess what I'm proposing is precisely not to try to migrate BL from X to Wayland. There's so much in our current system that just wouldn't work on Wayland. I thought maybe a very bare-bones system with only the parts of BL that worked OOTB on Wayland - or maybe not even all of them - might be interesting, as a secondary project. Not only that, but a useful thing to have already running when the time comes that staying on X is no longer fun. Sure, likely not for several years.

Last edited by johnraff (2024-02-04 09:21:35)

johnraff · 2024-02-04 09:21:58

This is quite good:
Showdown 2024: X11 vs Wayland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWdUg-DcZMk

PackRat · 2024-02-04 18:17:51

johnraff wrote:

Do people think BL as it is is pretty much feature complete

I think it is.

My only suggestion for BL Carbon is that installation of labwc be added to the BL welcome script, or the openbox menu. Parallel project would be too time consuming.

Add a Using Labwc and Wayland thread in the help section - maybe even ahead of the BL Carbon beta ISO release.

Last edited by PackRat (2024-02-04 18:18:23)

johnraff · 2024-02-05 02:23:43

packrat wrote:

My only suggestion for BL Carbon is that installation of labwc be added to the BL welcome script...

@packrat is it possible to just install labwc into a BL system and be able to use it? I'm sure some of our utilities would break, at least.

I'm also puzzled by the startup path. Surely the Debian xsession files would become useless if trying to start wayland?

So I'm worried about getting a tangled-up frankensystem trying to add labwc to an existing BL install.

That's why I was thinking of a very basic setup, starting from zero and borrowing from the BL system only the parts that already worked on Wayland, but completely separate from BL. Then gradually, bit by bit, going over the rest of BL to see how it could be adapted, or what replacements needed to be found. That process might go over several releases...

PackRat wrote:

johnraff wrote:
Do people think BL as it is is pretty much feature complete
I think it is.

This is my feeling too, apart from bugfixes, and minor UI tweaks.
And that's why I was wondering if perhaps even with our tiny developer team we might be able to shift some effort to that Parallel Project.

Add a Using Labwc and Wayland thread in the help section

That would be great! Would you like to write it - or start it anyway? I'd be one of the first to read it. My experience of using Wayland is zero at this point.

PackRat · 2024-02-05 11:00:42

Yes, you can install labwc on a BL system no problem. Most of your base applications will run in Wayland (not sure about Vlc), but I can see where a lot of your utilities will fail - wallpaper changer will definitely fail.

Tint2 sort of works. Wayland implements workspaces differently so the taskbar isn't fully functional.

That would be something to do if you have the time and hardware. Install Debian Sid with labwc and see what works. There are no gui apps like obconf; manual editing of configs.

The real hurdle for Wayland is Nvidia. Real PITA getting those cards to work sometimes.

Log in would be another hurdle. I don't know if labwc writes a *.desktop file or if lightDM even works with Wayland. A switch to Gdm may be in order. How much Gnome would that bring in?

And you are correct. The .xsessionrc and other files ate not read by Wayland.

For an independent project, there is also the issue of a live session. I don't think Wayland runs in a live session. Needs verifying; does the Fedora live session boot to Wayland or X?

Last edited by PackRat (2024-02-05 14:03:02)

Jimbo_G · 2024-02-05 11:45:03

There's already some information on integration on labwc github: https://labwc.github.io/integration.html

Whichever route is taken (added as an option to BL Carbon or a standalone minimalist setup) I'd be interested in testing, partly because I use a HiDPI monitor.

PackRat · 2024-02-05 17:55:16

@johnraff @hhh

Had some time today so I installed Sid (Siduction) with Xfce4 and then installed labwc. One bug is that labwc also requires xwayland which was not installed as a dependency.

Siduction uses sddm as the login manager and labwc does install a *.desktop file show it appears on that menu.

labwc also installs foot as the default terminal (excellent terminal, but Wayland only) and provides a basic setup. I installed labwc, waybar, grim (screenshot utility) and wofi (rofi for wayland). When I logged into labwc, I had a basic desktop all set up:

at least users will have a template.

xfce4-terminal, thunar, gimp, geany all worked with Wayland.

grim replaces scrot and xfce4-screenshooter, swaybg replaces nitrogen, feh

johnraff · 2024-02-06 03:20:49

^@packrat this is indeed the sort of approach I had in mind, rather than adding Wayland to an existing X-based BL and trying to unpick the issues. Use apps that work on Wayland and build up - you've given me a nice list to start with there, many thanks!

packrat wrote:

at least users will have a template

This is what I'm hoping to achieve right now, nothing more, at least for another couple of releases. Meanwhile X-based BL Carbon and Nitrogen will continue to be the full-featured desktop.

@hhh how does this approach sound to you?

---
It looks as if there isn't much choice right now as to Display Managers that will run on Wayland: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/waylan … y_managers
---
I was hoping xwayland could be left completely unused on the "base setup", and only for users to add their personal favourite apps. @packrat Do you know why labwc depends on it?
---
Another test will be if there are enough usable apps in the Trixie repos. To make sense (to me anyway), this project needs to be based on Debian Stable, ie Trixie in a while.

Last edited by johnraff (2024-02-06 03:30:16)

cog · 2024-02-06 05:44:35

@johnraff my little distro added wayland compatibility with bookworm a while back. You might get some ideas or bad ideas from the way I did things. Anyways it’s a resource if you want.

https://github.com/troutcobbler/hatchery-lb-config

https://github.com/troutcobbler/hatchery-skel

I will say things like tint2 etc probably won’t work. I’m using sway and optionally hyprland for wayland so nothing OB related.

cog · 2024-02-06 05:46:30

Also labwc doesn’t do drop shadows from what I understand so theming will be like openbox without picom more than likely.

johnraff · 2024-02-06 09:05:11

Hi @cog thanks for that!

Quite prepared to see some longstanding props like tint2 become unusable. (Tint2's developer has frozen the project anyway.)

I'll be personally disappointed if labwc has no drop shadows though. That's the main thing I want from composition - transparency I can live without. If it turns out to be too spartan, might be forced to try a different wayland compositor, though I was hoping to be able to show some support to @malm as a BL developer.

PackRat · 2024-02-06 10:52:42

Not sure why labwc required xwayland. Sway doesn't.

But I'm pretty sure it's required to run xapps in Wayland so most users will need it installed.

Last edited by PackRat (2024-02-06 11:46:42)

PackRat · 2024-02-06 13:01:07

johnraff wrote:

I'll be personally disappointed if labwc has no drop shadows though. That's the main thing I want from composition - transparency I can live without. If it turns out to be too spartan, might be forced to try a different wayland compositor, though I was hoping to be able to show some support to @malm as a BL developer.

There is always Wayfire -

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P … 9mhfzjpNle

johnraff · 2024-02-07 03:06:44

PackRat wrote:

Not sure why labwc required xwayland. Sway doesn't.
But I'm pretty sure it's required to run xapps in Wayland so most users will need it installed.

Agreed. Xwayland will be needed.
But it would be nice not to have the base system relying on it.

---
Wayfire! Spinning cubes! I remember all the fuss when Compiz started that.

What made #! click after my personal Openbox experiments was xcompmgr, which I knew nothing about. Just those drop shadows transformed a plain desktop into something nice looking. For me anyway.
It's a pity composition has to be baked into the window manager with Wayland, so no lightweight compositor addons.

cog · 2024-02-07 05:44:18

@johnraff glad it’s of some help. Malm might be down to implement some features like drop shadows, rounded corners, etc. if he’s keen on BunsenLabs being its showcase. Have no idea since I don’t know the guy.

johnraff · 2024-02-07 05:50:22

^Yeah we'll have to wait and see what @malm has to say. He might think Trixie is a bit too early for something like this.

hhh · 2024-02-07 06:48:29

A lot of great input here. My take though, if I were to distill it a bit... let's wait a bit and see?

We do have two years still to see what Debian does.

#1 2024-02-01 07:18:03

Wayland and BunsenLabs

#2 2024-02-01 07:32:11

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#3 2024-02-01 07:48:59

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#4 2024-02-01 08:13:14

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#5 2024-02-04 09:21:58

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#6 2024-02-04 18:17:51

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#7 2024-02-05 02:23:43

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#8 2024-02-05 11:00:42

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#9 2024-02-05 11:45:03

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#10 2024-02-05 17:55:16

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#11 2024-02-06 03:20:49

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#12 2024-02-06 05:44:35

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#13 2024-02-06 05:46:30

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#14 2024-02-06 09:05:11

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#15 2024-02-06 10:52:42

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#16 2024-02-06 13:01:07

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#17 2024-02-07 03:06:44

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#18 2024-02-07 05:44:18

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#19 2024-02-07 05:50:22

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

#20 2024-02-07 06:48:29

Re: Wayland and BunsenLabs

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