HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

johnraff · 2023-02-22 05:58:17

hhh wrote:

johnraff wrote:
The other meaning is "unlikely to change". Testing gets package updates nearly every day, and some of them do indeed change how things behave. In that sense, Debian testing is not stable at all at the moment.
Except that under the freeze, even the soft freeze, they don't get updates nearly every day, and if they do they're incredibly restricted and incremental...

Well, I'm getting lots of package upgrades on almost a daily basis right now. Maybe they're all restricted and incremental...

Are there some maverick maintainers?

Debian wrote:

We want maintainers to focus on small, targeted fixes. This is mainly at the maintainers discretion, there will be no hard rule that will be enforced.

hhh · 2023-02-22 06:05:53

Proof of concept, just booted into Boron and these are the upgrades...

48 packages can be upgraded. Run 'apt list --upgradable' to see them.
roy@TyrellCorp:~$ sudo apt upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following package was automatically installed and is no longer required:
  libmpdec3
Use 'sudo apt autoremove' to remove it.
The following packages will be upgraded:
  cryptsetup cryptsetup-bin cryptsetup-initramfs firmware-amd-graphics
  firmware-atheros firmware-bnx2 firmware-bnx2x firmware-brcm80211
  firmware-cavium firmware-intel-sound firmware-ipw2x00 firmware-ivtv
  firmware-iwlwifi firmware-libertas firmware-linux firmware-linux-nonfree
  firmware-misc-nonfree firmware-myricom firmware-netronome firmware-netxen
  firmware-qcom-soc firmware-qlogic firmware-realtek firmware-samsung
  firmware-siano firmware-ti-connectivity gir1.2-nm-1.0 libaom3
  libcryptsetup12 libell0 libnm0 libnss3 libpython3.11-minimal
  libpython3.11-stdlib librecode0 libtag1v5 libtag1v5-vanilla libtagc0
  libwxbase3.2-1 libwxgtk3.2-1 libxfce4ui-2-0 libxfce4ui-common libxnvctrl0
  media-types network-manager python3.11 python3.11-minimal synaptic
48 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 153 MB of archives.
After this operation, 76.8 MB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]

No linux-image, no GCC, nothing critical at all unless you think upgraded firmware is a problem. I'm upgrading!

johnraff · 2023-02-22 06:16:44

^Go! Did I say there was a problem?

I just disputed the claim that Debian Testing was stable, in the second sense above. That's the sense in which the word is used in "Debian Stable" - things won't change.

Right now things are changing, mostly for the better.

For the general user there's no question, just upgrade. For people writing bash scripts, now and then something might change. For programmers, possibly more.

I wonder what happened to cryptsetup, network-manager and synaptic, but too lazy right now to look at the changelogs...

hhh · 2023-02-22 06:16:57

I don't know, it's Linux. You pay your money (nothing), you take your chances...

johnraff · 2023-02-22 06:21:54

hhh wrote:

johnraff wrote:
^^Get how the official installer suddenly ships non-free firmware.
This wasn't sudden at all, once again Debian took their time debating it...
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Debian-No … are-Result
https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/20 … 00000.html

Oh dear, once again we're reduced to bickering about definitions.
Yes, I know they were discussing this issue for years.
Debian Installer bookworm alpha1 had no non-free firmware, alpha2 did. That's sudden in a certain sense.

hhh · 2023-02-22 06:21:56

^^ network-manager RAM has fallen back to a reasonable level of 50-ish?

johnraff · 2023-02-22 06:23:39

hhh wrote:

I don't know, it's Linux. You pay your money (nothing), you take your chances...
https://imgur.com/6utXQc1l.png

Yes actually it's starting to look pretty good, in many ways.

My old 32bit Panasonic boots up to ~360MB RAM on Boron.

hhh · 2023-02-22 06:26:02

johnraff wrote:

Oh dear, once again we're reduced to bickering about definitions.

Discussion is not bickering, I'm on your side! Without definitions and judgement, who the hell am I and what do I know about the world?

Anyway, the soft-freeze is 99% stable (not based in fact, hyperbole yada yada...) *IMO*.

hhh · 2023-02-22 06:35:45

johnraff wrote:

That's sudden in a certain sense.

I hope you get a laugh out of this clip...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSOBeD1GC_Y

jeffreyC · 2023-02-22 10:41:07

hhh wrote:

^^ network-manager RAM has fallen back to a reasonable level of 50-ish?

Still uses twice as much as ConnMan but a step in the right direction.

Did it get any faster than it was?

hhh · 2023-02-22 12:47:03

^ What do you mean, "faster"?

As for Connman, are you using it via CLI or via a GUI front-end? If the latter, it probably uses the same negligible RAM as nm-applet. Seriously, 50-100Mb RAM is nothing. Got it down to 25? And there was much rejoicing.

dmontaine · 2023-04-28 14:09:08

I decided to try this method of installing rather than use the "Upgrade Beryllium" method that I usually use.

I installed it on an LG UltraPC 16 laptop using the most currentl weekly net install Debian 12 testing image.

I ran into two problems:

1) during the Debian install, I had to backup and try the ethernet identification step a second time. The first time it did not identify the network interfaces. The second time it did.

2) During bl-welcome, I answered Y to all the options. The bl image archive was not found and it then skipped the Bluetooth, Java and software version tracking installations as well and reported those installs as errors. I went through bl-welcome a second time answering N to installing the image archive and the Bluetooth, Java and software version tracking installations worked as expected.

johnraff · 2023-04-29 05:19:29

dmontaine wrote:

two problems:
1) during the Debian install, I had to backup and try the ethernet identification step a second time. The first time it did not identify the network interfaces. The second time it did.
2) During bl-welcome, I answered Y to all the options. The bl image archive was not found and it then skipped the Bluetooth, Java and software version tracking installations as well and reported those installs as errors.

True, bl-image-archives is not yet available for Boron, but that shouldn't make bl-welcome skip all the following items. (You didn't use Ctrl+C to exit the image archive install? That would exit the whole script of course.)

Anyway, thanks for the report, I'll see if if I can reproduce 2).

1) looks like a Debian Installer issue.

johnraff · 2023-04-29 06:43:08

dmontaine wrote:

During bl-welcome, I answered Y to all the options. The bl image archive was not found and it then skipped the Bluetooth, Java and software version tracking installations as well and reported those installs as errors. I went through bl-welcome a second time answering N to installing the image archive and the Bluetooth, Java and software version tracking installations worked as expected.

Confirmed. It collects all the packages to be installed and runs them all together in a single call to 'apt-get install' at the end. If any one of the packages fails the whole command fails. I'll have a look and see if the package installs can easily be run separately, so one failure would still allow the rest to go through.

deleted0 · 2023-04-29 15:21:45

Since we're on bl-welcome and suggestions is in the tread title; allow me to suggest removing "I Understand" from the script.

"Dad says I have to type "I understand" before I can go out and ride my bike."

Who is BL to talk down to users that way. You ain't my daddy.

8bit

edit: I created a bl-welcome that I thumb drive to the new installation overwriting the existing one. That was the first thing I changed. Combined Debian and BL back-ports to the same screen, and other streamlining.

Last edited by deleted0 (2023-04-29 16:50:42)

johnraff · 2023-04-30 06:44:49

deleted0 wrote:

suggestions is in the tread title

The word "suggestions" is nowhere in the title - it's a HOW-TO. But this whole section is called "Development & Suggestions", so anyway...

deleted0 wrote:

allow me to suggest removing "I Understand" from the script.
"Dad says I have to type "I understand" before I can go out and ride my bike."
Who is BL to talk down to users that way. You ain't my daddy.

Yeah, I agree. But not everybody does - certainly when I suggested some time ago dropping the compulsory type-in most of the devs were all for keeping it. If you have to handle a lot of support questions from people who add all kinds of 3rd party repos to their apt sources you get a bit that way. I tried to search for the initial discussion but it was too long ago. A random sample:
https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic … 163#p80163
https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic … 049#p74049
https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic … 254#p62254

So users don't appreciate being lectured, for sure, but mods get impatient.

I wouldn't care at all if it came out, but some others might.

or1o9 · 2023-04-30 08:26:37

^How about just rip the band-aid off? If it shows to be a bad idea it is always possible to put it back on later when the iso is ready for an update, or even the next release.

Anyway those who is going to mess up will probably do that anyway, even if they "understand".

deleted0 · 2023-04-30 11:21:26

johnraff wrote:

deleted0 wrote:
suggestions is in the tread title
The word "suggestions" is nowhere in the title - it's a HOW-TO. But this whole section is called "Development & Suggestions", so anyway...

Section title, not thread title. Corrected. So anyway...

deleted0 wrote:
You ain't my daddy.
So users don't appreciate being lectured, for sure, but mods get impatient.

Were the devs under some delusion; "Well, I signed that agreement so I guess I'd better not post."

"We'll" insult all our users if it might save us a bit of work.

"We'll" fix those shoddy reviewers. We'll hide one of the most used sections of our menu. That'll make'em do it right."

Ya put out a distro, you take the lumps with the gravy, and not take it out on the users.

And since you opened the door, who are the devs? Who all is on the team?

Last edited by deleted0 (2023-04-30 11:34:15)

deleted0 · 2023-04-30 12:52:23

johnraff wrote:

So users don't appreciate being lectured, for sure, but mods get impatient.

Thinking about this for a moment, it's counter productive.

Forum support is still gunna get the help requests, only the user is more likely to not tell the complete story making support's job harder.

edit: How 'bout just a line or two on the welcome page:

On Debian installing software from random websites is a bad habit.
If you break it, you get to keep the pieces. Don't break Debian

This should be easy. Why punish everyone for the mistakes of the few?

Support convenience is a worthy goal, but the wrong North Star.

2³bit

Last edited by deleted0 (2023-04-30 13:10:12)

johnraff · 2023-05-01 00:33:24

deleted0 wrote:

Were the devs under some delusion; "Well, I signed that agreement so I guess I'd better not post."
"We'll" insult all our users if it might save us a bit of work.
"We'll" fix those shoddy reviewers. We'll hide one of the most used sections of our menu. That'll make'em do it right."
Ya put out a distro, you take the lumps with the gravy, and not take it out on the users.

This is all uncalled for. As I've already said, I was for taking that out. The majority disagreed.

And lay off about the fkn "Applications" submenu. I've already said why I think it's non-ideal and that we need to discuss it carefully after the Boron release. Throwing that kind of line in here is totally unproductive.

And since you opened the door, who are the devs? Who all is on the team?

At that time, there were people on the team who are no longer with us.
We took off the list from the website some months ago when all this legal stuff/privacy/liability paranoia kicked in.
But you can go to the user list and filter by Developers, Moderators etc. The roles pretty much overlap. Some of the people on the list no longer spend much time here. You'll figure it out.

#21 2023-02-22 05:58:17

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#22 2023-02-22 06:05:53

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#23 2023-02-22 06:16:44

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#24 2023-02-22 06:16:57

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#25 2023-02-22 06:21:54

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#26 2023-02-22 06:21:56

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#27 2023-02-22 06:23:39

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#28 2023-02-22 06:26:02

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#29 2023-02-22 06:35:45

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#30 2023-02-22 10:41:07

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#31 2023-02-22 12:47:03

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#32 2023-04-28 14:09:08

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#33 2023-04-29 05:19:29

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#34 2023-04-29 06:43:08

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#35 2023-04-29 15:21:45

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#36 2023-04-30 06:44:49

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#37 2023-04-30 08:26:37

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#38 2023-04-30 11:21:26

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#39 2023-04-30 12:52:23

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

#40 2023-05-01 00:33:24

Re: HOW-TO set up an experimental BL Boron system on Debian Bookworm.

Board footer