Forum migration

johnraff · 2022-06-27 01:19:20

Some of you may already have noticed that email notifications from the forum and new registrations have been disabled. This will hopefully only be temporary, but is the first step towards moving the BL forums to a better foundation.

That has long been on our wishlist, but that it has recently become urgent is due to a combination of factors - technical debt, and regulatory/EU driven internet regulations recommending some amendments to the system - so we decided not to put if off any longer. We are hoping to get through it with a minimum of disruption to the community, but in the long term, we might have to consider moving to a different, more up to date forum platform.

The first step of this is reverting the FluxBB install to stock features, removing all customizations, so expect the loss of some functionality like private messaging and the advanced bbcode editing toolbar and maybe downtime in the process. On the flipside, when these first steps have been done, there will be an improved sign up process to prevent even more spammers, a streamlined, obvious way for users to file data subject requests, and hopefully easier and clearer migration pathways forward to other forum platforms.

An unfortunate short-term consequence is that the Beryllium release, which now is pretty much ready, will have to be put back yet again, at least until the initial changes are done.

Our apologies to those who have been waiting patiently for that iso.

deleted0 · 2022-06-27 02:04:03

And after that there will be some other reason to delay; yawn...

dolly · 2022-06-27 03:50:10

Thank you for the fair warning.

Döbbie03 · 2022-06-27 04:18:52

Glad to see things are in hand.

If you don't mind me asking, what's the timeline for the changes?

johnraff · 2022-06-27 06:06:36

My guess: migration as-is (with some content and functions removed) probably less than a month. Once new member registrations are re-enabled we'll be able to do an official release - I imagine there might be some new people at that time, and we don't want to show them a locked door.

Beyond that, it depends on our choice of framework going forward. Lots of options to consider...

DeepDayze · 2022-06-27 12:35:10

Any chance of migrating to a new different forum software?

johnraff · 2022-06-28 00:11:28

^yes indeed. That's a main item on the list of things-to-consider.

DeepDayze · 2022-06-28 02:54:08

johnraff wrote:

^yes indeed. That's a main item on the list of things-to-consider.

Why not use the same forum software as what Archlabs is using? It's got a nice format.

johnraff · 2022-06-28 04:04:05

^Discourse? Yes that's one of the candidates. Flarum is another, I think.
Yet another would be just to update FluxBB to 1.5.x That's the simplest option, but FluxBB doesn't seem to have seen development since 2018.

Döbbie03 · 2022-06-28 05:25:25

We looked at Flarum, admittedly it was 18 months back. It pales in comparison to Discourse. It is a nice forum to use but didn't fit what we wanted.

juancuyo · 2022-06-30 00:22:34

Good evening, thanks for the warning, hopefully the changes will not bring inconvenience and improve the communication of the forum, A pity for Beryllium, anyway I have no problems with the current Bunsenlabs. Thanks for your efforts, I hope everything goes well.

Leatherman · 2022-07-01 19:39:52

DeepDayze wrote:

Any chance of migrating to a new different forum software?

Maybe migrating to Bullseye, like every other Debian based distro already did, might even be cooler ! O:)

AndrewSmart · 2022-07-02 00:10:32

Forum style is excellent as is.

Happy with BL.

Last edited by AndrewSmart (2022-07-02 00:21:45)

johnraff · 2022-07-12 04:03:41

Expansion on the OP wrt recent comments elsewhere, especially asking why we don't build isos more often:

1) @sleekmason your work on the theming is hugely appreciated and at that time I was all set to do a release. Just updated a few config files - terminal, tint2 etc - to match, fixed a final couple of outstanding bugs and ready to go.

2) I'm sorry but I can't go into details here, but I'm asking everyone to please believe me when I say outside factors are holding it up. The forum migration is part of it. Anyone who chooses to think I'm bullshitting is free to do so, and there's nothing further I can do about that.

3) I'm extremely unhappy that Beryllium didn't go out last summer. It was close to ready even then. Of course we didn't have @sleekmason's beautiful theme at that point. Then Real Life stuff intervened. I certainly don't think it's OK that it's taken this long.

4) All that said, I don't understand the emphasis in some quarters on building isos. All you need is a system, install the packages and when a change comes down the pipe you'll get it with 'apt-get upgrade'. Right now anyone can enjoy the beautiful Dragon theme if they update their BL packages.

If you've got a system you're actually using, not just booting up to admire, then it's much less disruptive for an improvement to arrive via a package upgrade than a new iso. Apt upgrade and you're done.

OTOH New iso means:
*) keep your eyes on a forum thread or release website for the news
*) download the iso (network speed?)
*) check the sha256 sum
*) back up all your data
*) go through the installation (20min or more)
*) restore your backed-up data
*) make sure the new iso hasn't messed with your desktop

I totally fail to see how that's a nicer work flow for users than a package upgrade. No criticism meant for anyone, just a difference in philosophy perhaps.

5) There is paperwork (@sleekmason's excellent term) at the supply end too, at least for an "official" release:
*) make sure all the packages on the official repo are up to date
*) put iso on server, along with checksums
*) set up bittorrents
*) write Release Notes
*) update the website front page
*) inform people like Distrowatch, post on Twitter etc
*) a~nd right now new forum signups are disabled (reasons...) It would be much better if the people who wanted to join up after hearing about Beryllium weren't faced with a locked door. So official release will have to wait till a good part of the forum migration is done, and new registrations are re-enabled.

Of course we do all that every release - nothing difficult - but BL is a team project.
One-man projects can move faster, but can end abruptly too eg CrunchBang.

6) So official release will have to wait a bit longer. And no, I'm not at all OK with that.

There should be a "test" iso available soon (no, I'm not going to commit to a date) for forum members to check over, but not for general sharing.

johnraff · 2022-07-12 04:37:41

Bit of light reading:
https://webdevlaw.uk/2022/07/11/your-co … fety-bill/

dbvolvox · 2022-07-12 20:43:28

johnraff wrote:

Bit of light reading:
https://webdevlaw.uk/2022/07/11/your-co … fety-bill/

Thanks very much! Makes GDPR look trivial.

deleted0 · 2022-07-12 22:19:06

johnraff wrote:

3) I'm extremely unhappy that Beryllium didn't go out last summer. It was close to ready even then. I certainly don't think it's OK that it's taken this long.

I apologize for my harsh wording. I'm sure BL is near and dear to you.

Maybe a root cause of tension is months and months of radio silence.

johnraff wrote:

4) All that said, I don't understand the emphasis in some quarters on building isos. All you need is a system, install the packages and when a change comes down the pipe you'll get it with 'apt-get upgrade'.

That's only part of the story. That won't get them from Buster to Bullseye. Upgrading by changing repos or using an ISO is about the same amount of work for the prudent user, involving backups, etc. Personally, I would always do a fresh install.

And that doesn't do anything for non-users. IMHO, the most important market. Current users are already sold. How many potential new users have went away because BL is still Buster, or wondered why BL hasn't gotten their act together.

I take you at your word that if you could, you would.

Does that include not releasing test/temp ISOs for almost a year? This something that can't be talked about absolutely prohibits it?

Is it just coincidence going from Stretch to Buster took over a year? July 6th, 2019 - August 3, 2020

See how this looks like a pattern?

Last edited by deleted0 (2022-07-12 22:58:49)

AndrewSmart · 2022-07-13 01:40:39

Good/Cheap/Fast -- pick two

Most seem to want cheap/fast and don't care for quality. Japanese products in my opinion are generally without equal in quality. Toyota, ball bearings, NiMh batteries, lcd panels, etc. Thinking about buying some Toshiba SCiB modules.

IIRC there is at least one Debian distro that tracks and builds on oldstable intentionally- arguments on maximal reliability in doing that, all the bugs already reported/fixed.

Personally I always just use apt-get to upgrade and make my own squashfs. Everyone has their use-cases though and would make do with cheap/fast if that is their thing.

johnraff · 2022-07-13 04:57:35

Hi Al, thanks for the thoughtful comments.

eight.bit.al wrote:

johnraff wrote:
3) I'm extremely unhappy that Beryllium didn't go out last summer. It was close to ready even then. I certainly don't think it's OK that it's taken this long.
I apologize for my harsh wording. I'm sure BL is near and dear to you.

Thanks! Accepted. And yes, it is. Gets a good slice of my Computer Time most days. To be honest, there are times I'd like to get back to some other projects that have taken a back seat, but right now, and for some time back, getting Beryllium out of the door has been top priority.

Maybe a root cause of tension is months and months of radio silence.

Understood. It's a pity, but it was partly inevitable. Privacy means privacy, and a web forum is a very public space. That said, I agree we should look towards a more transparent development path. More of the dev discussions could be public, just as Debian mailing lists are.

johnraff wrote:
4) All that said, I don't understand the emphasis in some quarters on building isos. All you need is a system, install the packages and when a change comes down the pipe you'll get it with 'apt-get upgrade'.
That's only part of the story. That won't get them from Buster to Bullseye.

This is true, yes. I was mainly referring to the concept of issuing a new iso as a way of pushing out improvements, as opposed to package upgrades. The latter takes (a lot) more work to set up on the dev side, but once it's done bugfixes can go out in a few minutes.

And that doesn't do anything for non-users. IMHO, the most important market. Current users are already sold. How many potential new users have went away because BL is still Buster, or wondered why BL hasn't gotten their act together.

Yup. Quite true.

I take you at your word that if you could, you would.

Thanks. It's true. Stuff intervened.

Does that include not releasing test/temp ISOs for almost a year? This something that can't be talked about absolutely prohibits it?

No, we could have put out a test iso last autumn or so, but it would have been almost identical with Lithium. Also, it would have had to be configured to use the experimental repos. Before sharing a test iso with you guys I have to clear it with the rest of the team - that takes time, when not everyone can check in every day. Then there's usually some issue to fix before someone is OK with it. It's not the time required to build isos (~30min here) it's what happens before and after.

Another worry is Reviewers. @sleek got a rather unsympathetic review the other day. Those guys don't have time to look into why things are how they are, or what's the best way to use a certain distro, they just dive in with the first superficial impression (some honourable exceptions). If an outside person got their hands on a testing BL...

All that said, looking back I think it would have been better if we'd got a testing iso out half a year ago.

But the Somethings (several separate issues actually) did indeed block sharing any isos since around then, until a whole load of other things were taken care of first.

Is it just coincidence going from Stretch to Buster took over a year? July 6th, 2019 - August 3, 2020
See how this looks like a pattern?

If you see a pattern, it's unrelated to any of the above. Just (mostly) my inefficient work flow. There were many more changes Helium > Lithium than Lithium > Beryllium, mostly things I wanted to stuff in at the last minute, when others wanted to get the release out. This time it's more about Real Life and the dev team.

Looking forward, we have to wait to see how things work out, but I'm thinking it might become possible to put the new Boron packages directly in the official repos. That would make it easier for both people installing via Debian and later via an iso. Fingers crossed...

jeffreyC · 2022-07-13 06:22:43

johnraff wrote:

Bit of light reading:
https://webdevlaw.uk/2022/07/11/your-co … fety-bill/

Wonder how many small operations will take a look at that and decide that allowing users from the UK to access their site simply is not worth the trouble and expense?

#1 2022-06-27 01:19:20

Forum migration

#2 2022-06-27 02:04:03

Re: Forum migration

#3 2022-06-27 03:50:10

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#4 2022-06-27 04:18:52

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#5 2022-06-27 06:06:36

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#6 2022-06-27 12:35:10

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#7 2022-06-28 00:11:28

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#8 2022-06-28 02:54:08

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#10 2022-06-28 05:25:25

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#12 2022-07-01 19:39:52

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#13 2022-07-02 00:10:32

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#14 2022-07-12 04:03:41

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#16 2022-07-12 20:43:28

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#17 2022-07-12 22:19:06

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#18 2022-07-13 01:40:39

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#19 2022-07-13 04:57:35

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#20 2022-07-13 06:22:43

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