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#1 2021-08-18 08:57:53

Peregrino69
Member
Registered: 2016-03-11
Posts: 88

Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

The title says it.

I've now done several installations on several VMs and laptops of different ages, both 32 and 64bit. I usually run a live session to ensure my inertnet connection works, and every distribution I've so far seen has a clear "Install" option as an icon or in the menu. I don't find that in the Bunsen Live, which is a bit inconvenient.

Last edited by Peregrino69 (2021-08-18 08:58:22)

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#2 2021-08-18 10:53:14

rbh
Member
From: Sweden/Vasterbotten/Rusfors
Registered: 2016-08-11
Posts: 1,182

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

In Helium, was the installer integrated in the live iso. Why or when the installer was removed from live iso, I can't I remember, but there was som reason for it.

Debian has now adopted the Calamares, the live installer. It is shipped with Debian 11 (bullseye) iso.

It was said in early spring (if I remeber correct), that the BunselLab Beryllium live iso also should have Calamares.

Last edited by rbh (2021-08-18 11:00:07)


// Regards rbh

Please read before requesting help: Guide to getting help,
Introduction to the Bunsenlabs Lithium Desktop and other help topics under "Help Resources" on the BunsenLabs menu

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#3 2021-08-18 21:43:18

sleekmason
zoom
Registered: 2018-05-22
Posts: 604
Website

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

I've not messed with the Calamares installer yet but plan on giving it a go.

You can include a shortcut on the "live" desktop (or menu entry) by adding:

debian-installer-launcher

to /config/package-lists/my.list.chroot if you are building your own Debian live build.
Then adding a menu entry with root privileges:

sudo debian-installer-launcher -e 

("e" for the expert installer)

Unfortunately, using this seems to cause some problems with the network not holding a wireless connection:( This causes issues in both the live session and the live installer launcher.  Might be why it was dropped. Shame that.

I don't think any work has been put into this since 2019 or so.  Makes sense, from what I hear about the Calamares installer being pretty awesome and all.

Trying the debian-installer-launcher again right now just to see what happens but don't expect anything different.

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#4 2021-08-19 00:42:27

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 8,278
Website

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

BL isos have never had an "install" option in the menu of the live session, it's always been necessary to reboot and choose Install from the grub menu. That is the same as the Debian live isos as far as I know, though I haven't used them so much.

The desire for an install option inside the live session goes way back, but it's less easy to provide than it might sound, and since it's basically a convenience issue - the user can avoid having to reboot before installing - it hasn't received much attention to date.

*) debian-installer-launcher I played with this for a while, but it has bugs and hasn't seen much development recently.

*) Calamares when it first came out it also looked somewhat unreliable, so we left it to see what happened. These days, yes, many distros have adopted it. Debian Live, since Buster, have made it available as an alternative to the standard Debian-Installer. This is the crunch - it's not a bolt-on addition to d-i, but an alternative to it. Using Calamares in BL would mean completely re-doing our whole installation codebase. And Debian-Installer is a wonderful piece of work with few bugs and adaptable to almost any situation you can think of. I'm also not sure if live-build supports using calamares instead of d-i (@sleekmason?). Changing our whole iso-building framework isn't really an appealing prospect...

So, yes installing directly from the live session would be a nice thing to have, but at this point in the development cycle it's just not realistic to switch from Debian-Installer to Calamares for Beryllium. (I don't think we ever promised to make such a change, either.)

Something to think about for Boron...


...elevator in the Brain Hotel, broken down but just as well...
( a boring Japan blog (currently paused), idle Twitterings and GitStuff )

Introduction to the Bunsenlabs Lithium Desktop

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#5 2021-08-19 08:36:05

Peregrino69
Member
Registered: 2016-03-11
Posts: 88

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

johnraff wrote:

BL isos have never had an "install" option in the menu of the live session, it's always been necessary to reboot and choose Install from the grub menu. That is the same as the Debian live isos as far as I know, though I haven't used them so much.

I just installed Bullseye via Install in live smile Killed it immediately as it overwrote the BL grub, and I couldn't get it back...

Yea I figured it might not be just as simple as that. It's not a biggie, just a nice thing to have available.

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#6 2021-08-19 12:26:34

rbh
Member
From: Sweden/Vasterbotten/Rusfors
Registered: 2016-08-11
Posts: 1,182

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

johnraff wrote:

BL isos have never had an "install" option in the menu of the live session,

Sorry, remembered wrong. #!, had but itwasnotin Hydrogen.

*) debian-installer-launcher I played with this for a while, but it has bugs and hasn't seen much development recently.

It is not an abandoned project:
debian-installer-launcher_27_all.deb    2016-12-18      stretch
debian-installer-launcher_34_all.deb    2018-12-23      buster
debian-installer-launcher_38_all.deb    2020-11-06      bullseye
debian-installer-launcher_39_all.deb    2021-03-13      sid
I have never used it, might think that it will get less attention in the future, now when Calamares is introduced.

But, I cant see any important bugs:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgrepo … r-launcher

*) Calamares [...] This is the crunch - it's not a bolt-on addition to d-i, but an alternative to it.

Hmm, I do not really understand why Calamares would result in crucial consequences...

Using Calamares in BL would mean completely re-doing our whole installation codebase.

It should not be necessary... I think.

And Debian-Installer is a wonderful piece of work with few bugs and adaptable to almost any situation you can think of.

I do not think anyone disagree with that.

I'm also not sure if live-build supports using calamares instead of d-i

? You stated before: "yes, many distros have adopted it. Debian Live, since Buster, have made it available as an alternative to the standard Debian-Installer."...

Changing our whole iso-building framework isn't really an appealing prospect...

So, yes installing directly from the live session would be a nice thing to have, but at this point in the development cycle it's just not realistic to switch from Debian-Installer to Calamares for Beryllium. (I don't think we ever promised to make such a change, either.)

I checked previos threads and it was only "think about it". Now, there is notany chanceto get it into beryllium.

Something to think about for Boron...

Or, maybe a point-release in spring 2022...?

I will try to take time to play with Calamares in winter.

Last edited by rbh (2021-08-19 12:28:35)


// Regards rbh

Please read before requesting help: Guide to getting help,
Introduction to the Bunsenlabs Lithium Desktop and other help topics under "Help Resources" on the BunsenLabs menu

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#7 2021-08-19 19:15:23

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 5,554

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

Please, do not start deconstructing the solid foundation BL stands on.


Give to COVAX! Here or here. (explanation)

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#8 2021-08-19 23:15:07

rbh
Member
From: Sweden/Vasterbotten/Rusfors
Registered: 2016-08-11
Posts: 1,182

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

ohnonot wrote:

Please, do not start deconstructing the solid foundation BL stands on.

Calamares on debian bullsey live iso, is a stable, mature, well-functioning and useful software.
There is no reason it would disbehave badly on BL iso...


// Regards rbh

Please read before requesting help: Guide to getting help,
Introduction to the Bunsenlabs Lithium Desktop and other help topics under "Help Resources" on the BunsenLabs menu

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#9 2021-08-20 05:42:45

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 5,554

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

^ But wouldn't that require building the BL ISO in a way that's very different from the Debian stable ISO?
Honest question, no idea how that is done.
But I always appreciated #!/BL because it stayed so close to its Debian stable foundation.


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#10 2021-08-20 06:18:56

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 8,278
Website

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

rbh wrote:
johnraff wrote:

BL isos have never had an "install" option in the menu of the live session,

Sorry, remembered wrong. #!, had but itwasnotin Hydrogen.

Hmmm CrunchBang? Really? To be honest I have no such recollection, and I just launched #!10 and #!11 isos I had in a VM, and couldn't find any "install" option anywhere in the live session. It was there in the grub boot menu of course.

*) debian-installer-launcher I played with this for a while, but it has bugs and hasn't seen much development recently.

It is not an abandoned project:
debian-installer-launcher_27_all.deb    2016-12-18      stretch
debian-installer-launcher_34_all.deb    2018-12-23      buster
debian-installer-launcher_38_all.deb    2020-11-06      bullseye
debian-installer-launcher_39_all.deb    2021-03-13      sid

Thank you for bringing this up, it seems to have had some attention in the last couple of years that I was unaware of. The last time I spent any time with debian-installer-launcher was probably in 2018 or 2019, and it was in an orphaned state at the time, with no maintainer. This bug report was not encouraging:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo … bug=844611

Raphael Hertzog wrote:

In any case, it's basically unmaintained and provides a rather poor user
experience leading to many support requests (that's why we stopped using
it in Kali).

Since then, while it still has no maintainer, it is being looked after by the Debian QA team, and, especially in 2020, quite a lot of new commits were made:
https://salsa.debian.org/installer-team … its/master
(Previous to that, most of them look like translation updates.)

No, agreed there are fewer now than when I looked last time.

*) Calamares [...] This is the crunch - it's not a bolt-on addition to d-i, but an alternative to it.

Hmm, I do not really understand why Calamares would result in crucial consequences...

Here's what the debian-live page says:

Installer: Starting from Debian 10 Buster, the live images contain the end-user-friendly Calamares Installer, a distribution-independent installer framework, as alternative to our well known Debian-Installer.

So, without d-i...

johnraff wrote:

Using Calamares in BL would mean completely re-doing our whole installation codebase.

I'm also not sure if live-build supports using calamares instead of d-i

? You stated before: "yes, many distros have adopted it. Debian Live, since Buster, have made it available as an alternative to the standard Debian-Installer."...

It's quite popular, yes, and clearly more modern-looking and user-friendly, but it doesn't look as if it co-exists with d-i.

As for live-build, I don't know what iso-builder the other calamares-installer distros are using, but I think Debian no longer uses live-build, although many derivatives (such as Kali Linux) do. Debian used live-wrapper for a time but now I haven't been able to find by simple browsing exactly what they use to build the current Debian live isos. Both live-build and live-wrapper, along with some calamares support, seem to be part of the live-team project:
https://salsa.debian.org/live-team

But determining how to integrate calamares with our live-build configuration - which currently is heavily intertwined with debian-installer - would not be a trivial task.

I'm personally inclined to wait a release or two until things have settled down, and there are some robust templates to copy.

Or, maybe a point-release in spring 2022...?

I think even that's a bit soon, considering there are likely other BL tasks (wayland??).

I will try to take time to play with Calamares in winter.

That would be great! Thanks!

EDIT Right now I'm installing Debian Bullseye lxde from a live session using the calamares installer that came with it.
It's now clear that Calamares and Debian Installer are two independent alternative ways to install. Calamares comes in the live session and D-I is started from the Grub boot menu.

Do some googling of calamares "debian-installer" and plenty of material comes up, eg this 3 year old Reddit thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comment … calamares/
and
https://jonathancarter.org/2019/10/17/c … debian-11/

EDIT2 So if a BL-configured Calamares could be configured to sit in the live session as a less-featured alternative to D-I in the boot menu it might be got to work without many many hours of work from BL devs. Users with specific needs (eg what about Secure Boot?) could be asked to reboot and use the regular installer. It's not really that much extra work to do a reboot, though, is it?

Last edited by johnraff (2021-08-20 07:12:19)


...elevator in the Brain Hotel, broken down but just as well...
( a boring Japan blog (currently paused), idle Twitterings and GitStuff )

Introduction to the Bunsenlabs Lithium Desktop

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#11 2021-08-20 10:58:03

rbh
Member
From: Sweden/Vasterbotten/Rusfors
Registered: 2016-08-11
Posts: 1,182

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

johnraff wrote:

EDIT2 So if a BL-configured Calamares could be configured to sit in the live session as a less-featured alternative to D-I in the boot menu it might be got to work without many many hours of work from BL devs. Users with specific needs (eg what about Secure Boot?) could be asked to reboot and use the regular installer. It's not really that much extra work to do a reboot, though, is it?

Nice we came to same conclusion :-)


// Regards rbh

Please read before requesting help: Guide to getting help,
Introduction to the Bunsenlabs Lithium Desktop and other help topics under "Help Resources" on the BunsenLabs menu

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#12 2021-08-20 16:56:16

unklar
Back to the roots 1.9
From: #! BL
Registered: 2015-10-31
Posts: 1,549

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

Thanks @john and @rbh for your contribution.  smile

Although I know and also use calamares in siduction since 2018.1, the "behind it" has not really interested me so far. Inspired by you guys, I read up a bit.

According to that, calamares is a kind of construction kit for the distributions and the branding is then the actual customization, what @john is talking about.
I know that siduction internally uses the KDE partition manager, which I don't trust since my Mageia days. So I always prepare the partitions with gparted and then install there.

Basically, even now with calamares the cli installer is still shipped, as an excerpt from the manifest of the current siduction-Farewell makes clear. I assume that this will be the same in BL and that the user can rely on this net.

...
calamares                              3.2.36-1
calamares-branding-siduction           21.2.0-7
chafa                                  1.6.0-1
checkpolicy                            3.1-1
chkrootkit                             0.54-1+b2
cifs-utils                             2:6.11-3.1
cli-installer                          0.4.1
...

So if there is something to test in BL in this regard at some point, I'm on it....

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#13 2021-08-21 01:05:11

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 8,278
Website

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

Calamares seems to use some KDE libraries so it would likely add some megabytes to the ISO size.
There seem to be more bugs with Calamares than D-I, and definitely less functionality.
If BL shipped a configured Calamares we'd have to support user issues with two install methods.

This to save users from having to do a reboot, and to provide a nicer GUI.

Personally, I'm not  too fired up about investing a lot of time into configuring a BL Calamares, at least at this point, but if anyone felt like putting together some config (and preferably also answering the user questions on the forum) then it might be a nice thing to add to our live session. I'll happily provide any necessary info about the stuff in our isos.

We'd also have to work at making it clear to first-time users that there are two different installers, and what the differences between them are.


...elevator in the Brain Hotel, broken down but just as well...
( a boring Japan blog (currently paused), idle Twitterings and GitStuff )

Introduction to the Bunsenlabs Lithium Desktop

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#14 2021-08-22 06:45:22

unklar
Back to the roots 1.9
From: #! BL
Registered: 2015-10-31
Posts: 1,549

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

^Sobering, but understandably.

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#15 2021-08-23 06:32:59

hhh
Meep!
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 12,173
Website

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

Late to the party here, and haven't read everything, so I hope I'm not too wrong here...

The reason we never put an installer option anywhere on our faux desktop , or the menu behind it, is because in Debian live-build it didn't work for 32 bit installs, and since we are a distro that tries to support legacy hardware we binned the attempt (trashcan, filed under "G"for garbage).

Reboot, grub menu "Install" option... profit. Crude but it works. Keep it simple, stupid.

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#16 2021-08-24 01:42:21

DeepDayze
Like sands through an hourglass...
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 1,327

Re: Add "Install" -option to the Live session's Welcome-screen or menu

hhh wrote:

Late to the party here, and haven't read everything, so I hope I'm not too wrong here...

The reason we never put an installer option anywhere on our faux desktop , or the menu behind it, is because in Debian live-build it didn't work for 32 bit installs, and since we are a distro that tries to support legacy hardware we binned the attempt (trashcan, filed under "G"for garbage).

Reboot, grub menu "Install" option... profit. Crude but it works. Keep it simple, stupid.

Ahh that makes sense now, as that's most likely the best workaround in light of the live-build issue.


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