A Newbies Perspective on Boron - Aesthetics more than anything

Döbbie03 · 2023-11-18 22:42:29

Hey Dudes,

I booted into the latest Beta ISO. Just a few things, apologies if you already have discussed.

- 4k Friendly, not sure if you guys use a 4K monitor, but neither the wallpaper nor the default Aqua theme are 4k friendly. I used to just ship 4k wallpapers with AL, they still scale nicely on lower res monitors.
- A heap of padding around the windows and buttons etc with Aqua (probably just needs an HiDPi version like some of the other themes?)
- The mouse cursor is gigantic. I have a script I used to use with AL if you want it but requires some manual intervention initially from the user. Again, a 4k issue.

Minor things in the scheme of things, and just a suggestion.

johnraff · 2023-11-19 02:02:41

A short-term user was kind enough to contribute some hidpi theming for Helium. At that time another user claimed the system would adjust automatically anyway. My display is 1400x900 which is on the small side. I don't know if anyone in the team has a 4k display (I had to google it).

But these sound like serious issues - is there anything we can do at this stage? @hhh?

Döbbie03 · 2023-11-19 04:07:05

I run 4k. Have done for almost 10 years.

I can help with themes. I am 99.9% sure that Openbox isn't intelligent enough to differentiate between 4k (3840x2160) and 1080p (1920x1080). We don't have that luxury with X11.

I am pretty sure Has uses Oomox to theme, there is an option there to accommodate for 4k resolutions.

Wallpapers are simple, just remake them. Themes are easily tweakable.

Döbbie03 · 2023-11-19 04:43:45

Also, is there anywhere else you guys communicate other than the forum, something a little more realtime? Or is it all via the BBS?

Last edited by Döbbie03 (2023-11-19 04:44:01)

johnraff · 2023-11-19 04:53:38

^^OK this is getting outside my Zone - can you talk to @hhh about it?

Only two admin-type things I'd say are:

1) Boron is almost ready for release. How much work are we looking at here? If it's just tweaking some files here and there then we should be able to get it in in time, but if we're talking about creating new HiDPI themes then maybe it will have to be post-release?

2) Wallpaper size does bring download size. This is what bunsen-images-base ship right now (four designs, three aspect ratios, current total size 3.5MB):
https://github.com/BunsenLabs/bunsen-im … rs/default
Add one large image for each design, or make them all hi-res? What implications for package size?

Last edited by johnraff (2023-11-19 04:59:05)

johnraff · 2023-11-19 04:58:35

Dobbie03 wrote:

Also, is there anywhere else you guys communicate other than the forum, something a little more realtime? Or is it all via the BBS?

No-one uses IRC as far as I know. Email is no more realtime than the forum.
What are you thinking of - telephone?

Oh... one of those Social Network things? Doubt if you'd get much enthusiasm for Facebook Messenger...

Yeah, basically it all revolves round the forum.

Döbbie03 · 2023-11-19 05:04:35

Hmmm, yes that is a good point. @hhh, what's your thoughts?

johnraff wrote:

OK this is getting outside my Zone - can you talk to @hhh about it?
Only two admin-type things I'd say are:
1) Boron is almost ready for release. How much work are we looking at here? If it's just tweaking some files here and there then we should be able to get it in in time, but if we're talking about creating new HiDPI themes then maybe it will have to be post-release?

It shouldn't be too much work, but I'd like to know how @hhh built the themes. If we struck any last issues with AL that were minor, we would deliver the changes as an update. Though I am so green with anything Debian I would hate to say either way.

Depending on the time frame and taking testing into account, I personally would like at least a week to play with the theme. But it maybe as simple as an option that wasn't ticked.

2) Wallpaper size does bring download size. This is what bunsen-images-base ship right now (four designs, three aspect ratios, current total size 3.5MB):
https://github.com/BunsenLabs/bunsen-im … rs/default
Add one large image for each design, or make them all hi-res? What implications for package size?

For the sake of "first impressions" is it worth slightly increasing the ISO size to deliver a crisp, glorious 4k wallpaper rather than pull it from a repo? I assume, yes I know what assuming can be, that most of the distro is delivered from the ISO rather than pulling it from a repo?

But!! One last thing that may possibly be super relevant, how many complaints have you had about 4k issues? Thinking on it further, most BL users have older machines which generally aren't running 4k hardware. So again at my own risk, I am assuming it is a Dobbie issue not a general issue.

Also, I am really nervous about stepping on toes. If I am being too forward, just let me know. I don't want to upset the apple cart. All I am doing is seeing stuff through different eyes and just putting stuff out there.

I also realise being on Arch may cause complications too. But, that is for later, when I eventually get a BL install finished.

johnraff · 2023-11-19 05:16:21

Dobbie03 wrote:

how many complaints have you had about 4k issues?

None that I know of.
Of course that doesn't mean that people wouldn't appreciate better 4k support, especially going forward.

ISO size is a compromise. I guess soon we're going to have to provide more choice - maybe a bare-bones iso with all the frills left out that people can build up on.

Last edited by johnraff (2023-11-19 05:18:10)

Döbbie03 · 2023-11-19 05:24:31

Excellent, for me that says to leave it how it is and to make it part of the next round of updates. Plenty of time to smash out a high quality theme. I love tweaking the Openbox themes.

What is the main factor that produces such a large ISO? I know in the scheme of things 1.7GB isn't that much but (and I'm in no way comparing AL to BL because that is literally comparing Slayer to Justin Bieber, not saying you guys are Bieber but I was looking for a Metal reference here within keeping of my Elitist Metal attitude) AL was always under 1GB. 700-900MB was our target size.

Is it how Debian works?

Again, I am super rusty, I never have actually installed BL and haven't used anything Debian since #! days when I moved to Arch.

Again, apologies for the lack of knowledge.

johnraff · 2023-11-19 06:42:29

Debian isos get bigger with every release, that's just the base stuff before anything BL gets added. That's quite an impressive iso size you were getting. I don't know if there's a main factor... if you felt like pulling an iso apart to see what was chubby:

If you've got an archive manager like FileRoller (anything will do) extract the BL iso to a directory.
Install ncdu (very handy cli app for checking disk usage).
Open a terminal inside the extracted iso's directory and run ncdu.

Immediately I see 1.2 GiB [##########] /live
That's the biggest subdirectory by far. Next is 235.0 MiB [# ] /pool which holds a bunch of debian packages.
OK select /live and Enter.
1.2 GiB [##########] filesystem.squashfs
That's the compressed file system which is extracted when running the live session or copied onto the computer when installing. Does AL have a live option?

To go on, you've got to start extracting some of the files inside the iso directory. squashfstools will let you open filesystem.squashfs, any archiver can open the initrd.img or vmlinuz (maybe have to go in and extract twice).
Go back up to the root and inside install/ there's initrd.gz and vmlinuz likewise extractable. Once you've extracted something to a directory you can go in and run ncdu again...

It might take a while, but might be interesting, depending.

Last edited by johnraff (2023-11-19 06:44:01)

brontosaurusrex · 2023-11-19 10:08:36

@Dobbie, just curious, is it 3840 x 2160 or 4096 x 2160 ?

hhh · 2023-11-19 12:08:29

Great to have your input, Dobbie.

I did use an old version of oomox to make these themes. I installed a newer version just a couple of weeks ago, though, so I'm not sure which version I had (1.2, I think). Current version I have is 1.6.

Oomox is no longer maintained on Debian, I believe, which is why I used such an old version. It's also kind of broken, I think it only produces a Numix-based theme now, at least on my system.

Fortunately, I kept the themes. Version 1.6 has some extra options, it's definitely worth me regenerating them. I'll also try the flatpak version (1.15), though I think that package is messed up as well.

I'm pretty sure I left the option to generate 2x scaled assets unchecked, and also the option to generate both GTK 3.18 and 3.20+ themes. I'll check the box for the assets this time and see what I can see.

I have a smart TV that I can hook up to via HDMI and mess with some big resolutions. Guess I have a day planned out for me!

hhh · 2023-11-19 21:58:14

Dobbie, download Boron-aqua-test from here and let me know what you see...

https://github.com/hhhorb/boron-themes

I haven't checked it on the TV yet, so I have no idea if the 2x assets do anything. Also check for .xsession-errors (also John, please). I see a clearlooks warning when I launch vlc from a terminal, but I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about the dozens of "deprecated" scss warnings we were getting with the original themes.

-edit- Oh, and what resolution are you thinking of for a wallpaper? I'll knock that out ASAP. 3840x2160px?

-edit- For now, here's a no-logo version at 3840x2160...

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/hhhor … 0x2160.png

Last edited by hhh (2023-11-19 23:53:25)

johnraff · 2023-11-20 03:24:34

hhh wrote:

Dobbie, download Boron-aqua-test from here and let me know what you see...
https://github.com/hhhorb/boron-themes
I haven't checked it on the TV yet, so I have no idea if the 2x assets do anything. Also check for .xsession-errors (also John, please). I see a clearlooks warning when I launch vlc from a terminal, but I'm not worried about that.

OK I'll give it a spin. This is a potential plugin replacement for the current Boron-aqua theme?

I was wondering about the clearlooks messages. Installing gtk2-engines gets rid of them - it's only "1,629 kB of additional disk space" so we could add it to the install list? I guess vlc is still gtk2??

EDIT: but if vlc is just checking if a library that it might need is available, then no big deal if it isn't. Do we gain anything from having gtk2-engines?

Last edited by johnraff (2023-11-20 06:25:02)

Döbbie03 · 2023-11-20 04:34:24

johnraff wrote:

Does AL have a live option?

AL only had a live session later on, we brought it back for a release, but it increased the size too much so we ended up removing it again.

brontosaurusrex wrote:

@Dobbie, just curious, is it 3840 x 2160 or 4096 x 2160 ?

Hey Bronto, every display I have used that is 4k have been 3840x2160. I think 4096x2160 is DCI 4K (Digital Cinema Initiatives)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_C … nitiatives

@Has, sweet mate, yeah I used the latest version of Oomox a few months back and had some different options for different bases other than Numix. Well I used Themix as it is now known, version 1.15.1-1.

3840x2160 is a good size, don't do it on my behalf but it was just a suggestion as I know you'll get 4k users that will appreciate it. It looks magic.

I'll test that theme soon, I need to find a new laptop to test on so I can keep my main machine running (I'm not a fan of VM's at all).

johnraff · 2023-11-20 05:13:15

Dobbie03 wrote:

johnraff wrote:
Does AL have a live option?
AL only had a live session later on, we brought it back for a release, but it increased the size too much...

So that could explain a good part of the size difference between the BL and AL isos. Maybe that plus our default package list. BL aims to be a useful complete system OOTB, with all the tools average users (whatever they are) will need.

Döbbie03 · 2023-11-20 05:25:32

I think, don't take this as gospel, it bumped the ISO up a couple of hundred MB's. Too much for our tastes, it blew our 1GB max.

You are quite right about a complete usable system right away, the whole point of AL was to provide a base to do what you want. It was a gateway to Arch proper was how both Nate and I saw it. If people weren't on board with that then we weren't too bothered. It was always just a hobby to us anyway.

hhh · 2023-11-20 06:39:59

I was thinking about the giant cursor, that issue has nothing to do with the GTK themes. I don't know too much about cursor themes but I assume Adwaita scales properly. We're currently using DMZ, which is also scalable, I don't know what the fix is. Dobbie, how do you set up your Arch system? Are you using scaling, what cursor theme, etc...

In debian, dmz-cursor-theme is its own package, adwaita-cursors is part of the adwaita-icon-theme package.

Last edited by hhh (2023-11-20 06:47:23)

Döbbie03 · 2023-11-20 07:02:59

The giant cursor is an X11 thing. It takes the sizing from either ~/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini or ~/.gtkrc-2.0 or .Xresources.

The other alternative is to set the size in XFCE4 mouse settings to the largest, then to the size you want and then logout and back.

This is what I have:

#!/usr/bin/env bash
#
# /usr/bin/setcursor

# config files
gtk2=$HOME/.gtkrc-2.0
gtk3=$HOME/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini
[[ -e $HOME/.extend.Xresources ]] && xr=$HOME/.extend.Xresources || xr=$HOME/.Xresources

# we'll have to override libxcursor's default
default=share/icons/default/index.theme
glob_default=/usr/$default
user_default=$HOME/.local/$default
[[ -e $glob_default ]] && [[ ! -e $user_default ]] && install -D $glob_default $user_default

# cursor-theme entries
cursor_gtk2=$(grep "cursor-theme-name" $gtk2 | cut -d'"' -f2)
cursor_gtk3=$(grep "cursor-theme-name" $gtk3 | cut -d'=' -f2)
cursor_xr=$(grep "Xcursor.theme" $xr | cut -d' ' -f2)

cursor=$1

# find config last modified
if [ -z $1 ]; then
	cursor=$cursor_gtk2; newest=$gtk2
	[[ $xr -nt $gtk2 ]] && [[ ! -z $cursor_xr ]] && cursor=$cursor_xr && newest=$xr
	[[ $gtk3 -nt $newest ]] && [[ ! -z $cursor_gtk3 ]] && cursor=$cursor_gtk3
fi

# set theme in all config files
echo "setting cursortheme \"$cursor\""
[[ "$cursor" != "$cursor_xr" ]] && \
	sed -i "s/Xcursor.theme:.*/Xcursor.theme: $cursor/" $xr &>/dev/null && \
	xrdb -merge -I$HOME ~/.Xresources
[[ "$cursor" != "$cursor_gtk2" ]] && \
	sed -i "s/cursor-theme-name=\".*\"/cursor-theme-name=\"$cursor\"/" $gtk2
[[ "$cursor" != "$cursor_gtk3" ]] && \
	sed -i "s/cursor-theme-name=.*/cursor-theme-name=$cursor/" $gtk3 &>/dev/null
[[ -e $user_default ]] && sed -i "s/Inherits=.*/Inherits=$cursor/" $user_default &>/dev/null

# and in the realms of the GNOMEs
[[ -f /usr/bin/gconftool-2 ]] && gconftool-2 --type string -s /desktop/gnome/peripherals/mouse/cursor $cursor
[[ -f /usr/bin/gsettings ]] && gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.interface cursor-theme $cursor

exit

I set scaling in .Xresources with

Xft.dpi: 139.96

. I do believe any tweaking with scaling should be the users responsibility. Cursor theme isn't really relevant to the issue as I have found it with any theme but I am using XCursor-Pro-Dark.

Last edited by Döbbie03 (2023-11-20 07:05:34)

hhh · 2023-11-20 07:03:50

johnraff wrote:

I was wondering about the clearlooks messages. Installing gtk2-engines gets rid of them - it's only "1,629 kB of additional disk space" so we could add it to the install list?...Do we gain anything from having gtk2-engines?

No, let's not worry about it.

I just noticed, we don't include mpv?

#1 2023-11-18 22:42:29

A Newbies Perspective on Boron - Aesthetics more than anything

#2 2023-11-19 02:02:41

Re: A Newbies Perspective on Boron - Aesthetics more than anything

#3 2023-11-19 04:07:05

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Re: A Newbies Perspective on Boron - Aesthetics more than anything

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