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#26 2019-02-08 00:20:55

MALsPa
Member
From: albuquerque
Registered: 2016-06-20
Posts: 95

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Martin wrote:

Why bother?
I am quite happy with Linux *not* being ready for the masses.

Indeed, I'm not even sure why we should want mass adoption of Linux.

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#27 2019-02-08 03:24:27

BLizgreat!
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Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 974

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Is gnu/nix ready for your desktop? Would say for millions the answer is clearly yes, even when keeping a ms sec net, never booted it. To the point finally said why devote this much disk space to something I  never even use anymore? Gnu/Nix is more than ready, the masses just have to show the desire to have better software and an infinitely better personal computing experience or at least better cause they likely won't get comp viri while watching porn. tongue

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-02-08 03:34:01)

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#28 2019-02-08 04:08:17

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 4,966
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

In countries where those who don't feel like investing time in setting up their desktop can just buy a Windows or Apple machine, then I agree with those who say that "Linux for the masses" isn't something we need to worry about.

But this leaves out less wealthy countries, and less wealthy people in rich countries for that matter. A Linux desktop costs nothing and has a good chance of running on hardware that is struggling with Windows 10. Not everyone wants to use pirated systems, for moral and practical reasons. So I think there is a significant user base there of non-geeks who just want their computer to do something useful.

I got the impression eg lxde might have been aiming at such a user population, at least when it started. There is still room for development of -  yes backup systems and other things too - but as twoion points out, the big companies aren't going to be funding it.


John
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#29 2019-02-08 05:06:26

Bearded_Blunder
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Posts: 605

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Looks like there's some hope backup-wise dattobd does much what VSS does in Windows, not in Debian yet though GPL/LGPL means it might just find its way in eventually, after everyone else has it maybe, & just about nothing uses it yet either.

They're only providing 64 bit of course, if that's because that's all they provide, or because you can't build for 32 I couldn't say.

Maybe it'll meet my "ready" criteria once those things change :-)

johnraff wrote:

But this leaves out less wealthy countries, and less wealthy people in rich countries for that matter. A Linux desktop costs nothing and has a good chance of running on hardware that is struggling with Windows 10.
Not everyone wants to use pirated systems, for moral and practical reasons. So I think there is a significant user base there of non-geeks who just want their computer to do something useful.

I got the impression eg lxde might have been aiming at such a user population, at least when it started.

Quite so, not to mention all the hardware currently pushing its limits running 7, which hasn't that long left in security support.
LXDE & LXQt seem to be quite peppy on such hardware too, or basically anything which shipped with Vista or newer, at least more responsive than the original OS.  There's quite a lot of machines out there, I wonder how many useful boxes get scrapped when they could be continuing to do useful service?
And how many still-capable 32 bit boxes will soon be scrap through want of software support.

Not to mention all the less well off non-geeks who continue using unsupported, unpatched & unpatchable systems & putting themselves at risk online when Linux might be a better option.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
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#30 2019-02-08 06:07:22

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 4,966
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

...all the less well off non-geeks who continue using unsupported, unpatched & unpatchable systems & putting themselves at risk online when Linux might be a better option.

Good point.


John
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#31 2019-02-08 07:15:53

ohnonot
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Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,431
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

johnraff wrote:

But this leaves out less wealthy countries, and less wealthy people in rich countries for that matter. A Linux desktop costs nothing and has a good chance of running on hardware that is struggling with Windows 10. Not everyone wants to use pirated systems, for moral and practical reasons. So I think there is a significant user base there of non-geeks who just want their computer to do something useful.

good point johnraff.

but as was said, this is mostly the work of volunteers, and the results are accordingly. Certainly more creative, but also more buggy or less "integrated". For me, this is a Good Thing and precisely the reason why I use GNU/Linux, and I can never quite understand when folks complain about this - on one hand, they want FOSS freedom etc., on the other hand they demand that all the inspired coders start getting their shit together and make uninspired stuff that Just Works (like it does on Windows (which of course isn't completely true either)).

I got the impression eg lxde might have been aiming at such a user population, at least when it started. There is still room for development of -  yes backup systems and other things too - but as twoion points out, the big companies aren't going to be funding it.

yes, i think LXDE is aiming at that.
But it seems Ubuntu have dropped Lubuntu (if not completely then at least to a lower level since they don't offer LTS releases anymore), and without Lubuntu, how much LXDE is there left?
In any case, LXDE isn't much beyond the applications it consists of. Which is a good thing imo, they all work nicely on their own or different contexts (lxappearance!). Session management a lá GNOME is a nightmare anyhow.

On topic (if there even is one):
I use borgbackup. Very satisfied.
I find it just about as convenient to use as something like that can be.
But boohoo, it does not have a clicky gui interface.
Which is to the best; i don't think I could get equally advanced & complex functionality with a graphical UI.

Last edited by ohnonot (2019-02-08 07:18:10)

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#32 2019-02-08 22:07:50

Bearded_Blunder
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From: Seat: seat0; vc7
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Posts: 605

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

BLizgreat![/quote wrote:

Really think BB was just trying to get some convo going and that this is just well intended flame bait. Saying if only gnu/nix had/could, Ms has been doing it for years.  Is bound sooner or later to draw out an empassioned rebuttal from nixers.

Precicely correct. 
Shame it hasn't drawn out a simple effective automatic Disaster-Recovery solution useable on a default install though.
These types of post usually turn up someone who knows a solution I haven't found.
For that default non-LVM install the best disaster recovery on offer is "boot to clonezilla regularly" exactly like I used "boot to norton ghost regularly" under Win 95.
I can live with that the same way I live with a classic car with no seat-belts as my vehicle, I couldn't recommend that classic to others for daily use, it's really not safe enough to *recommend*.
I'd actually prefer to be "wrong" here.

ohnonot wrote:

On topic (if there even is one):
I use borgbackup. Very satisfied.
I find it just about as convenient to use as something like that can be.
But boohoo, it does not have a clicky gui interface.
Which is to the best; i don't think I could get equally advanced & complex functionality with a graphical UI.

Which is a perfectly good DATA backup solution, Linux has well over a dozen of those (GUI), more command-line ones, and all of them adequate to really good for *what they do*.
It's not "Disaster Recovery" though, they supply the functionality MSBackup did in W9x & NTBackup did up to & including XP/2003, well more features in some cases, but still not that "boot recovery disk & recover entire system in one shot" thing Windows included without repeatedly taking your system offline since Vista.

Decent disaster recovery, not requiring booting an entire separate "Disaster Recovery" distro (e.g. CloneZilla, PING, others) to make the recovery backup is what's missing.  ReaR seems to come closest, if you do that custom install & manually script tarring up LVM snapshots instead of a running file system it looks like it could be made to be workable, or if you integrated dattobd support yourself & didn't mind fetching dattobd from git.

DR is something a non-geek should be able to do though, which is the whole point, well I guess a *conscientious* one can, assuming they're willing to take their system offline regularly to keep the recovery image updated, most aren't though. A "geek" could make "system offline" recovery images with nothing more than the netinstall cd, it can access external storage & includes dd & probably better options too.. it's hardly "Newbie friendly" though.

"Newbie friendly" is what I'm bemoaning the want of.  A better answer to someone who just installed and asks in help & support "how do I back up everything in case my machine dies" than "CloneZilla".

For "Newbie Hostile" point Windows refugees at the Arch forums rather than backup software.
(No I haven't had a bad experience as a member over there, simply reading them without joining was sufficient to put me off Arch forever)

This topic seems to have run its course now though, answer is, there's nothing there yet to meet my definition of the last thing missing to make Linux / Debian "ready".

Last edited by Bearded_Blunder (2019-02-08 22:09:41)


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#33 2019-02-09 02:23:23

BLizgreat!
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Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 974

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Sorry fellow nixer but this had run its course before you hit the submit button on the OP. smile

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#34 2019-02-09 02:53:28

Bearded_Blunder
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From: Seat: seat0; vc7
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 605

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

I suppose so, no shortage of the typical "Keep it an exclusive club by keeping it difficult" posts from the nixers who're afraid that the exclusivity might get diluted though. 
Personally I think that attitude is shameful snobbery, but it's all too common.
Fortunately less so than a few years ago, & way less on this board than some others I could name, but still.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#35 2019-02-09 03:18:12

brontosaurusrex
Middle Office
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,667

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

How much of the 'backup problem' is actually due to the machine layer I wonder? (I do remember setting up my Amiga, so that if main drive would die, it would auto-magically boot from the next. And I do remember it was really easy to setup)

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#36 2019-02-09 03:36:29

BLizgreat!
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Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 974

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Lol, snobbery? Are you kidding me. Overall just think this is silly. Really remain unclear what you're even talking about. Ah whatever, the world will keep turning. tongue

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#37 2019-02-09 03:51:11

Bearded_Blunder
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From: Seat: seat0; vc7
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Posts: 605

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

There's the "backup problem" & the "live backup problem" the first, with a quiescent file system was solved virtually the day that the operating system was created by cp & improved on by tar, dump, and all kinds of others, they'll all do the job from an inactive file system.  The difficulty arises backing up while the system is in use, files that refer to each other often change between referrer and referred to being backed up, restore that backup & referrrer/referred are broken, that's the "live backup" problem.

Windows solves it by volume shadow copies, available in the OS since Win 2000, basically a copy-on-write setup, you back up the shadow, which is a point-in-time frozen file system.  Now linux has options to do similar.. LVM snapshots being the most well known, I think bruddy-tortuous-redhat-file-system can do something too, and dattobd is in the wings which can also with sane file systems, the trouble is none of those mechanisms is available in a default install for a backup software to exploit, & dattobd is the only one you could apply post-install to a typical system where default options were chosen.  Other two you need to reinstall with different options.

ReaR solves all the issues except the "live backup" one, backs up the disk layout & config, backs up the boot files & produces a live cd to restore those from CLI including to different size disks with a little manual intervention, but changed disk sizes call for that with anything. That'd be "good enough" but the "live backup" issue is still there, if you want to restore your system reliably it must be taken offline & backed up from something else.  Typically, home PC users won't do that, it's an inconvenience, & the fact they won't is what drove creating systems that could backup or image a running system, the fact that many servers can't be taken down for backup & restoring by reinstall & then restore data backups is what really drove it though.

Linux servers tend to be installed by sysadmins who'll pick the non-standard install options they need for their backup strategy, typical PC users throw in the install disk & only answer questions they can't click through.. accepting defaults whenever possible, & lock themselves out from solving the "live backup" problem in Linux in the process.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#38 2019-02-09 04:00:30

Bearded_Blunder
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From: Seat: seat0; vc7
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Posts: 605

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

BLizgreat! wrote:

Lol, snobbery? Are you kidding me. Overall just think this is silly. Really remain unclear what you're even talking about. Ah whatever, the world will keep turning. tongue

Yes snobbery "It doesn't need to be ready, and I prefer it stays an exclusive club where only geeks like me can play" You'll find posts that translate to that all the way through threads like this.  Snobbery.. keep the "ordinary people" out.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#39 2019-02-09 05:05:58

damo
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Registered: 2015-08-20
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Steady on chaps - we don't want to find ourselves on the naughty step do we? hmm


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#40 2019-02-09 05:14:02

Bearded_Blunder
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From: Seat: seat0; vc7
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 605

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Hey, I'm not fighting about it, just saying how I and maybe some others view that all too common attitude
I've named no names, I'm accusing nobody, but the hat's there should any poster in or reader of this thread wish to try it on and decide if it fits.

Maybe if it does they'll reconsider their position, one can hope. smile


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#41 2019-02-09 09:44:31

S7.L
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Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 338

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

I thought this presentation on "The Tragedy Of Systemd" was quite good and something people should view and it has a lot to do with this thread in regards to how ready something is for mas adoption whether you like it or not kind of vibe. Change is good, only in a positive direction though. Basically the video breaks down the init system past and present and gives details on why systemd has and will continue to be implented with linux as it is part of linux now, its not portable, same as launchd from apple and svchost from microsoft is not portable.

Its an NZ linux conference only 2 weeks old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

Last edited by S7.L (2019-02-09 09:50:24)

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#42 2019-02-09 13:52:58

Bearded_Blunder
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Posts: 605

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

ohnonot wrote:

Lastly, I cannot conceive how someone who talks so much about wanting good ol' sysvinit back instead of poetteringware systemd, then turns around and says "we need windows-like point'n'click solutions!"

Actually just FYI what I *want* is to use OpenRC as pid1, Just like in Gentoo, unfortunately in Buster I've been unable to get openrc-init to boot, it hangs at different points depending if I'm switching from systemd or sysvinit, given I can't then sysvinit is the better option compared to systemd. HoaS had quite good instructions for OpenRC elsewhere on this board for Stretch, even with system.i.hate.it.d still installed, much as I dislike that too, but they're no longer working in Buster, and since I can't *currently* make any other alternative to systemd / org.UNfree.locked.into.systemd.desktop to actually WORK, then sysvinit it is! Sinnce I have that "sort-of" working here. I'm not HIM, and I lack his ninja skills, much as I'm *TRYING* to prove systemd isn't the ONLY available init in Debian rather than just the DEFAULT.. There were after all *claims* (apparently lies) you wouldn't be FORCED into adopting systemd if you chose Debian.

OpenRC seems a better way forward *TO ME* but hey-ho, if you want to think I'm opposed to "all change" go right on thinking that.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#43 2019-02-09 18:05:05

BLizgreat!
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Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 974

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

This further devolved into a systemd discussion? Wth? smile Ironically think moves like systemd are in ways aimed at exactly what you're supposed to be championing in this thread. Getting gnu/nix more consistent, thus ready for the masses.

Also personally somewhat understand, corps like Redhat volunteer untold man hours annually( has to total out to being a huge sum of money.) The people who pay for full time kernel developers and other major upstream projects. Of course they are going to want to see their interests are taken care of and have agendas.

Make choices, somebody will and it has to be done at some point anyway. While of course these may not be warmly received by the users. Which let's face it that's what the overwhelming majority of us are. People using something awesome, other people created and yet others continue to develop and maintain.

While not having contributed a single line of worthwhile code (and couldn't), nor much of anything else to any of it. Yet still think apparently we know best, any/all our desires or even whims given priority and every decision cleared through-by us. Wake up and smell reality. That's not how it is and thank the gawds for the sake of gnu/Linux it's not.

Some developer/s haven't created a free backup utility that meets my every criteria, therefor the platform isn't ready. I haven't figured out how to do xyz, because some highly gifted tech people have developed and implemented something I don't agree with on behalf of an organization which has contributed more to open source, than I ever could in a 100yrs, thus the world is ended.

Imo that's an integral part of being a nixer. If you want something, you research, learn and experiment until it's figured out. Not sit around whining n griping others haven't made it simple for you, thus again it's not ready.

One of the reasons I do respect folks like Hoas. When he wants something techie, tends to do his homework and get it figured out. Sheesh that would be more productive. Join Debian forum and send him a pm. He very well may point you in the right direction. Though Hoas from all I've seen is a fairly vocal systemd supporter and I like it too, shrugs. Just cause someone hasn't posted (or you haven't found yet) an easy step by step for you to follow, to do something you want, doesn't mean it's over complicated and intentionally by techno snobs. Think it means you have work to do. smile

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#44 2019-02-09 18:22:49

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 974

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Also the group hug offer stands. Not mad at anybody. smile

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#45 2019-02-09 19:57:35

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,431
Website

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

BLizgreat! wrote:

Also the group hug offer stands. Not mad at anybody. smile

tubhug.gif
I also want a TV in my belly!

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#46 2019-02-09 20:09:34

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 974

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

^Lmao, that's what I'm taking about. smile

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#47 2019-02-10 00:58:43

brontosaurusrex
Middle Office
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,667

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Hm, Dispy definitely doesn't look right, should be green. Laa-Laa, Po, and Tinky Winky do look fine imho.

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#48 2019-02-10 05:54:28

Bearded_Blunder
Member
From: Seat: seat0; vc7
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 605

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

This further devolved into a systemd discussion?

If S7.L hadn't introduced the subject I wouldn't have been reminded & gone back to that comment regarding init, it's completely unrelated to the backup issue, well almost unrelated, init=/bin/bash would pretty much give you a quiet enough file system to back it up live.  Not that helpful for continuing your work at the same time though.

At no point have I said Linux isn't ready for *me* to use, only that it's not ready to recommend to an average PC user, the learning curve is a little too steep for getting ongoing live backups running *for them*.  Everyone seems to think I have an issue over it or can't be bothered to sort my own strategy out.  Not the case.  Having looked at it though, it's too complex for me to recommend the platform to others is all.

I see nothing wrong with wishing it had reached the point I could recommend it.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#49 2019-02-10 06:31:20

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 974

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Hey don't miss out on the group hug! smile

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#50 2019-02-10 06:33:21

Bearded_Blunder
Member
From: Seat: seat0; vc7
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 605

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Hugs make me uncomfortable, if it's all the same & nobody's offended, I'd really rather give it a miss.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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