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#1 2019-02-06 19:48:02

Bearded_Blunder
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When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

I have my own answer it's something like this:

When there is at least ONE well-known equivalent to the scads of simple point and click Windows backup solutions which will:

Back up a running system to external media, or network share on a schedule, unattended
Restore said system to a usable state, by simply booting recovery media and following prompts

So far as I can see there isn't one, not ONE which doesn't require either off-line backup, booted from live media, or require you to
a) Set up your system in a non default way to begin with so there's even a method at all
b) Manually script creating LVM snapshots
c) Integrate said script into something like ReaR
d) Set up cron jobs by hand
e) Expect everyone to be able to backup & restore using a CLI

Well yeah I can probably set some such system up, but my sister? my mother?, my niece?
To be ready for the masses backup and disaster recovery needs to be as easy, point & click, follow the wizard as it has been in Windows for over a decade.

Until that's true, Linux is for data-loss, not mass usage!  Because Joe-Average Newbie can't back his data up, & faces a reinstall to recover even if he does set one of the (not usually included by default) GUI file backup programs up.

Installability has been cracked, now easy instead of requiring a geek like my early experiences.
Day-to-day useability has been solved.
Interoperability is there or thereabouts.

Reliable, easy, backup / disaster recovery is long overdue some attention!

I'd post "Include a good GUI backup solution" in Development & suggestions for Lithium, only I can't name one.

Last edited by Bearded_Blunder (2019-02-06 20:35:55)


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#2 2019-02-06 20:46:29

BLizgreat!
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Hey this gnu/nix, no doubt tons of existing ways to do this. From enterprise to personal. See stuff like this. Haven't used most of them but sure there are plenty of solutions for what you describe.

Might look over what the new user niche distros offer by way of pointy-clicky backup, Linux Mint and similar.

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#3 2019-02-06 20:58:42

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

My point is, it won't do what I'm describing without lots of manual config, hunting it down & setting it up, and the vast majority of the pointy-clicky solutions you find are on a par with what was built into Win 95, i.e. file based & no snapshots,  so no use for backup/restore of an entire system.

Windows has had a good disaster recovery system (well OK adequate) built in since Vista launched, and there were good 3rd party solutions, some free (as in beer), going back to windows 2000.. 19 years later and Linux still doesn't have one I know of, I've spent hours looking for something I could *recommend* as opposed to something I could *set up myself* but the "New user" target asking me what to use will find too complex.

Key Point wrote:

Direct challenge *name something* a new user from Windows could install & use without reinstalling their fresh default Debian+xfce install using LVM instead, which will functionally replace "Windows Image Backup" and not require them to boot a live CD & lose access to the system while running it.

Without something, Linux & Debian in particular is not ready for the masses. Much less a "Universal Operating System."

Last edited by Bearded_Blunder (2019-02-06 21:25:58)


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#4 2019-02-06 21:19:46

Martin
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From: Stockholm, Sweden
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Why bother?
I am quite happy with Linux *not* being ready for the masses.

/Martin


"Problems worthy of attack
prove their worth by hitting back."
Piet Hein

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#5 2019-02-06 21:37:18

brontosaurusrex
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

This close https://linuxmint-installation-guide.re … shift.html ? 'Universal' probably means it can run on variety of platforms.

Last edited by brontosaurusrex (2019-02-06 21:39:45)

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#6 2019-02-06 21:42:20

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

No cigar though, you get no guarantee that the created snapshot is consistent like Windows gives with any VSS enabled backup solution, & it's unclear how you'd recover from hard drive failure without first reinstalling your OS (hoping you remember the options used) & THEN seeing if the snapshot will even apply.

It's more analogous to "system-restore" than "Windows Image Backup" brtrfs might, but that misses the "default install" criteron.

Last edited by Bearded_Blunder (2019-02-06 21:51:26)


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#7 2019-02-06 21:48:38

brontosaurusrex
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

It's more analogous to "system-restore" than "Windows Image Backup"

Not sure how to compare those, for example "Windows Image Backup" will only ever restore to exactly and only 'this' machine right? Where mint's solution seems to be clickable rsync type of solution (Which I assume, but haven't tested, will apply on any kind of underlying solution or any other machine).

Last edited by brontosaurusrex (2019-02-06 22:00:04)

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#8 2019-02-06 22:01:23

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

WIB keeps improving, it was moderately hardware specific for Vista, machine had to require the same HAL, called for difficult manual intervention to correct otherwise (offline reg edits & such difficulty comparable to chroot & repair something in Linux), given that it'd *usually* sort drivers out, W10's incarnation copes with that better, 7 in between. Leaving aside the conversation with Microsoft about activation anyhow, which given "disaster recovery" they *usually* permitted, NP if you were "moving" a retail install, more pleading if it was OEM (worst case a license purchase) & if you're comparing W10 & sign on using an M$ account, I believe that's been mostly eliminated as an issue too.

You might have fun even with rsync to different hardware equally, initramfs doesn't have needed drivers as per e.g. or new mobo needs newer kernel.. comperable there I suggest.

I'm tempted to play, good test, can you restore a virtualbox install to vmware or vice versa. (Would for sure break the VmWare > V-Box direction pae kernel & non-pae required in target.. so chroot games).

Last edited by Bearded_Blunder (2019-02-06 22:13:11)


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#9 2019-02-06 22:31:34

THX1138
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Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 191

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Doesn't the question of mass adoption depend on how you view Linux? I mean it's already the server operating system of choice, and to be honest I have never really thought of it as being a true desktop operating system, but as a sort of hobbyist GUI sitting on top of a server OS. A bit like one of those drag-racing cars that look like a normal road car until you see them go down a track.

I dont believe the linux desktop computer will ever be as ubiquitous as windows or an Apple operating system,  even if it had a load of fancy backup software and the other things you mention. Users are scared of using what they think is different to the stuff they use at work.

Seriously I still get calls from people saying things like "windows keeps crashing" when what they mean is "Microsoft Office keeps crashing", they still call a web browser "The internet".
I dont think it will happen any time soon no matter what changes Linux undergoes.


The telephone is an antiquity - you never know who is calling, there is no image, it is an outmoded product which constantly disrupts work (Ralf Hutter (Kraftwerk)) ps: my wife knows how much I dislike being disrupted at Work - Ralf Hutter hit the nail on the head there

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#10 2019-02-06 22:47:54

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Different doesn't stop ppl using Kindle Fire tablets, or Chrome & Android tablets (those have decent DR recovery options by the way, often cloud-based but easy DR regardless).

Timeshift seems to lack a few functions WIB has, like.. the ability to save to a network location (neither NFS or SMB shares supported) WIB isn't perfect there either will only save ONE backup to network which it overwrites (work around by diff scedules to different shares). Nor the ability to restore to a blank replacement disk, you have to repartition & format file systems first.  No network/NAS backup's a doozy though.. puts it out of the running.

So time-shift == Closest yet but still not quite a "Out of Support & don't want W10" ex earlier Windows refugee friendly DR solution.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#11 2019-02-06 23:00:27

THX1138
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Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 191

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

Different doesn't stop ppl using Kindle Fire tablets, or Chrome & Android tablets (those have decent DR recovery options by the way, often cloud-based but easy DR regardless).

That's true.

I must admit though, what you are saying maybe true. I havent had time to think about it properly as I am so used to backing up systems with offline backup utilities that I havent thought about these questions for years, possibly decades. Just one observation though. Whenever I use windows backup utilities, either microsoft or some third party utility, I have to check and recheck that all the data is there and that, if the process is automated, did it complete etc etc etc. It drives me mad. so many things go wrong so often. The one that gets me the most is when someone changes a network password but doesnt change it on the backup software so the backup fails if it is across a network and it can fail for daysor weeks and nobody realises or cares till they need a copy of the backup. I just prefer to use something like clonezilla and a 2 huge archive drives, with a copy of the backup on each. To my way of thinking it saves time and energy


The telephone is an antiquity - you never know who is calling, there is no image, it is an outmoded product which constantly disrupts work (Ralf Hutter (Kraftwerk)) ps: my wife knows how much I dislike being disrupted at Work - Ralf Hutter hit the nail on the head there

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#12 2019-02-07 00:00:47

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Well there's some point there, you do have to keep an eye on the native Windows solution, else backups fail silently, twisting alerts out of Windoze for that's harder than it used to be & a somewhat obscure manual process. Can be done, but easier to download one of the many more feature rich solutions.  Plenty (rather than none) to choose from.

Point is to not shut down to do DR backups, I've an eye to moving ppl off Windows when support for 7 ends, given hardware that won't support 10, and I know from experience going RIGHT back to Ghost & Win95 that they WILL NOT backup if it means having to reboot, not even start backups at bedtime, hell they won't even point & click to start backups manually, set up once yes, click regularly no-way. 

This makes them fairly typical Windows users it's not merely my family who won't backup if it's an inconvenience it's most PC users, Win or Lin. If I personally had to go back to rebooting like for the DOS version of Ghost I would, *most users* won't and end up losing data because offline backup is too much hassle.

Companies pay consultants (or hire staff) to set things up, if setting it up on Linux is more hassle & requires writing bash scripts, said consultants don't mind being paid the extra hours involved.

Windows nags you into setting up an adequate if fairly feature poor set-&-forget DR solution or else deliberately turn the nagging off.

Linux *lacks* a simple set & forget solution. ReaR looks promising till you dig, point tar at a live system & hope nothing's too screwey post-restore by default.. Really?  Booting & working correctly after pulling the power cord is rather more likely. Not odds I fancy.  Props for the disk layout stuff, but.........

I don't believe Linux should nag, but there not being an easy solution for Windows refugees.. is really a genuine missing feature.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#13 2019-02-07 01:44:49

lowrider
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Short answer to:  When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?
Never, cause it shouldn't have to.

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#14 2019-02-07 06:23:57

ohnonot
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

^ thanks, lowrider.

When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

I detest statements like these, because they are highly suggestive: suggesting that of course everyone agrees that Linux should become ready for mass adoption, the only question is when.
Like a pep talk from the human resources department of your corporate employer.
Like communist propaganda (five-year plan).
Like populist politicking.
Well I actively disagree with the presumption and so I have no answer to it either.

My opinion on the matter: Open Source Software just doesn't work this way, and that's one important reason why I use it (and I suspect I am not the only one).

Also statements like "Linux still doesn't have an easy solution for _____ (backups in this case)" only betray two things: ignorance and laziness.

  • Laziness because "easy" (I don't need easy, I want reliable and configurable)

  • Ignorance because these solutions very well exist, and have been around for decades.

  • Laziness again because a person who says things like that usually gave up before they even finished the README, or because their demands for a shiny GUI haven't been met or because they got "stuck" after a few clicks or after the first command entered failed.

  • Ignorance again because it is effectively just another of those cases where someone tries to superimpose the structure of Windows (a completely different OS to all UNIX-like OSs, that has grown in a completely diffeent way from day one, for 4 decades) onto GNU/Linux as a whole (!), so the statement really reads: "You idiots, you've been trying for 30 years and GNU/Linux still doesn't work exactly like Windows!!!"

  • Ignorance again - of all the ways that GNU/Linux is better than anything else out there - and maybe the complainers perceived disadvantages are directly related to that. See below.

oh and by the way: operating systems based on the Linux kernel are the most-used in the world, and have been for many years already. Oh, that's not what you meant?

Anyhow, how about pointing out how the multitude of Linux distros out there is better than any proprietary OS in so many ways?

  • the multitude for one. the diversity, configurability, flexibility etc. "freedom" some like to call it.

  • especially the installable images. Just Works (tm) on 90+% of all devices. Devices made by manufacturers that don't give a tinker's cuss about working with Linux. You ever tried that with Windows?

  • almost infinitely more secure, compared to all its consumer-level proprietary alternatives.

  • privacy-respecting (ok this depends a little on the installed environment, but again, compared to all its consumer-level proprietary alternatives it surely is)

  • the list goes on.

Lastly, I cannot conceive how someone who talks so much about wanting good ol' sysvinit back instead of poetteringware systemd, then turns around and says "we need windows-like point'n'click solutions!" - i think it's just another case of wanting a shoehorn with teeth...

OK, now let me give an answer to your question:

When you have removed all choice and created a uniform system that can be used in one way only, when you have taken that freedom from the developers, too, that's when Linux becomes ready for mass adoption.

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#15 2019-02-07 06:54:39

hhh
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Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

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#16 2019-02-07 11:34:32

THX1138
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Posts: 191

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

ohnonot wrote:

When you have removed all choice and created a uniform system that can be used in one way only, when you have taken that freedom from the developers, too, that's when Linux becomes ready for mass adoption.

At first I thought this was a conclusion that was a little bit harsh but then I realised there is some truth in it. Apple and MS strive very hard to create an operating system where users dont have to apply any effort to achieve results, this comes at a cost (not necessarily a financial cost to the user). The main cost is choice. Imagine if MS or Apple had to have support teams specialised in tens of different programs all with the same basic goal but completely different methodologies. Linux achieves this but then that is choice, to get help you can either chance a reply on a general forum or you can go to the developers forum and get help for what software you chose. Not quite the same if MS or Apple are creating lots of choice, they just couldnt sustain the support at any cost so offer no choice.

I then thought about why, so called, entry level Linux distro's don't create their own
MS/Apple like backup solutions, point and click, no thought required. I mean, after all, Mint created its own desktop - Cinnamon, surely they have devs who could put in online system backup/restore, etc etc etc. Then it struck me that for this to happen means users would be asking why cant we also have xyz and abc and efg. It is because then a distro would have to offer fewer choices but have more developers, use more resources and time, and for no purpose other than to emulate windows. Things such as cinnamon were developed because there was a split community, a community that wanted choice, not because there was a community that wanted a single way of using their computer.

So I would agree with ohnonot's post in its entirety,  even though it came across as a little bit harsh.

Last edited by THX1138 (2019-02-07 11:44:36)


The telephone is an antiquity - you never know who is calling, there is no image, it is an outmoded product which constantly disrupts work (Ralf Hutter (Kraftwerk)) ps: my wife knows how much I dislike being disrupted at Work - Ralf Hutter hit the nail on the head there

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#17 2019-02-07 13:19:03

PackRat
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Registered: 2015-10-02
Posts: 952

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

When the average user can walk into a retail outlet and buy a Linux laptop or desktop that will work out of the box when they get it home. All comes down to marketing and retail access. One creative,  well timed commerciall put Apple on the map (and pretty much started the Super Bowl Commercial phenomenon); IBM's Linux commercial during the Super Bowl is the gold standard of epic failures, and a lesson in "what not to do".

Need commercials of happy people doing productive stuff with their Linux computers; not sure Chromebook fits that bill yet.


You must unlearn what you have learned.
    -- yoda

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#18 2019-02-07 13:24:51

PackRat
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Registered: 2015-10-02
Posts: 952

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

When there is at least ONE well-known equivalent to the scads of simple point and click Windows backup solutions which will:

I'd post "Include a good GUI backup solution" in Development & suggestions for Lithium, only I can't name one.

What doesn't grsync do for you? Should be in the repos.


You must unlearn what you have learned.
    -- yoda

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#19 2019-02-07 14:00:35

S7.L
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Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 338

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Linux is already mainstream in smartphones and the like, its just that android/google have the monopoly on it, hopefully not for too much longer.

But i agree with lowrider, it shouldn't have to become adopted by the masses, that is the mentality of Microsoft.

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#20 2019-02-07 14:15:27

S7.L
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Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 338

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

In regards to backup im pretty sure this is why system rescue cd has gone over to archlinux as the bleeding edge there has better updated options and ease of use maintainability to back up and recover over gentoo linux, whereas debian stable seems to fall behind in this regard, but that is not to say it cant be done with a little research, but getting to BB's point, the average joe point and click person just wants a hassle free backup experience, in that case he/she better stop using computers.

Last edited by S7.L (2019-02-07 14:20:00)

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#21 2019-02-07 18:27:29

BLizgreat!
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Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,000

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

Really think BB was just trying to get some convo going and that this is just well intended flame bait. Saying if only gnu/nix had/could, Ms has been doing it for years. smile Is bound sooner or later to draw out an empassioned rebuttal from nixers. Ohnonot's post was really good.

Also kind of silly to let someone define something so complex down to, if only gnu/nix had or did xyz, that would be pivotal, make all the difference. That's just not at all realistic. Which am sure, like everything else, there's no shortage of point-click backup/restore software for gnu/nix. Not installed default but as Ohnonot said, it doesn't work that way.

Don't think gnu/nix will ever be ready for us unwashed masses, unless like Ms os's, consumers aren't given a choice and it comes pre-installed, retailers wouldn't have to pay any licensing fees but there's a lot more to it than that surely.

Guessing the "avg computer user", would have a fine experience in such a dream world scenario but things as they stand imo, gnu/nix doesn't attract the so called avg comp user. Draws people who actually are into tech and comps, are willing to invest time and effort because they/we have a real interest in such and are rewarded with an amazing platform full of diversity and options.

It'd be trifling to say, if only windows had add-endless-list, it'd be ready for mass consumption. Still doesn't change that it's the mainstay personal computer platform. I'd argue compared to gnu/nix, windows has a long way to go before it'd be ready but still doesn't change the reality.

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#22 2019-02-07 20:22:56

twoion
ほやほや
Registered: 2015-08-10
Posts: 2,367

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

This is like oil on the fire, but: Linux will be ready for mass adoption as soon as a company starts pouring BILLIONS of US$ on a year-to-year basis into desktop Linux in the form of engineering time. All the money the big businesses like RedHat/IBM, Microsoft, Amazon, Oracle, etc are putting into Linux doesn't go to desktop Linux, it goes to exactly the opposite thing, non-desktop Linux. Desktop Linux is in large parts a volunteer effort. It has some rock-solid components like Qt available, but the desktops themselves are a side-effect of a) Volunteering or b) RedHat needing something (GNOME) to slap onto their RHEL OS. Canonical had something interesting going for a while but now they are in the GNOME camp too and focus on Ubuntu Server first (because that's where at least some money is, it sure wasn't to be found in Unity).

Ironically, the systemd/pulseaudio/udev (PoetteringSoft(TM)) is the effort that is most suited to bring Linux towards a more integrated desktop experience like macOS and Windows (all heavily service-based, centralized management components etc, also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo).


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#23 2019-02-07 20:40:59

THX1138
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Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 191

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

twoion wrote:

Ironically, the systemd/pulseaudio/udev (PoetteringSoft(TM)) is the effort that is most suited to bring Linux towards a more integrated desktop experience

Sometimes I think a thing for a long time, but only when someone else says it do I realise how it should have been said. Excellent post twoion

edited in
Except I wouldnt have put the word "ironically" in the sentence

Last edited by THX1138 (2019-02-07 20:45:13)


The telephone is an antiquity - you never know who is calling, there is no image, it is an outmoded product which constantly disrupts work (Ralf Hutter (Kraftwerk)) ps: my wife knows how much I dislike being disrupted at Work - Ralf Hutter hit the nail on the head there

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#24 2019-02-07 20:50:33

iMBeCil
WAAAT?
From: Edrychwch o'ch cwmpas
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 625

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

twoion wrote:

This is like oil on the fire, but: Linux will be ready for mass adoption as soon as a company starts pouring BILLIONS of US$ on a year-to-year basis into desktop Linux in the form of engineering time.

Excellent observation 2ion!

Indeed, compared to MS and Apple, Linux, on average, is quite unpolished, and that seems to be one of the main reasons ordinary people are unattracted to it.

(OTOH, there will always be people like me, who like minimalist approach, and/or are beauty-blind ... and most importantly, people who like plaintext config files.)


Postpone all your duties; if you die, you won't have to do them ..

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#25 2019-02-07 20:57:54

twoion
ほやほや
Registered: 2015-08-10
Posts: 2,367

Re: When will Linux be ready for mass adoption?

THX1138 wrote:

Except I wouldnt have put the word "ironically" in the sentence

OT: Tried flinging a punch at the orthodox Devuan camp but that's why I always get -1 point in the speaking and -2 points in the writing section of my TOEFL attempts for wrong or unidiomatic(TM) word choice. /OT


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