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#1 2019-01-18 14:18:20

THX1138
Member
Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 191

Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

Apparently the Systemd maintainer for Debian has quit.
he basically said that he has had enough

Will stop maintaining systemd in debian for a while.
What's going on is just too stupid/crazy.

message from Michael Biebl

Apparently the straw that broke the camels back was an issue where systemd changes the ethernet port names from a user defined name to a systemd defined name without informing the user
here is the actual thread in which Biebl vents his frustration at Poettering
It is fascinating reading, so are the links from that thread.

Last edited by THX1138 (2019-01-18 14:23:39)


The telephone is an antiquity - you never know who is calling, there is no image, it is an outmoded product which constantly disrupts work (Ralf Hutter (Kraftwerk)) ps: my wife knows how much I dislike being disrupted at Work - Ralf Hutter hit the nail on the head there

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#2 2019-01-18 14:44:22

DeepDayze
Member
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 706

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

Poettering is so heavy handed that this has become ridiculous. I don’t think systemd should change anything without informing or warning user.


Real Men Use Linux

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#3 2019-01-18 14:59:33

unklar
Member
Registered: 2015-10-31
Posts: 883

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

Well, leave the church in the village.   wink
Changing the name of the network interface is an old hat. That must have other obstacles, e.g. perhaps "interpersonal contact" with each other.

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#4 2019-01-18 15:06:01

S7.L
Member
Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 338

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

Im no fan of systemd,i believe it encroaches too much for an init system and this just proves it.

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#5 2019-01-18 15:25:15

THX1138
Member
Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 191

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

I have wondered if systemd was secretly commissioned by Microsoft to be honest hehehehe but then I love a bit of unsubstantiated conspiracy theory every now and then


The telephone is an antiquity - you never know who is calling, there is no image, it is an outmoded product which constantly disrupts work (Ralf Hutter (Kraftwerk)) ps: my wife knows how much I dislike being disrupted at Work - Ralf Hutter hit the nail on the head there

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#6 2019-01-18 15:49:36

S7.L
Member
Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 338

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

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#7 2019-01-18 15:57:35

DeepDayze
Member
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 706

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

S7.L wrote:

Im no fan of systemd,i believe it encroaches too much for an init system and this just proves it.

Like so much it subsumes much of the basic infrastructure of Linux. Init systems should mainly boot the kernel and start the services and not much more.


Real Men Use Linux

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#8 2019-01-18 16:20:05

S7.L
Member
Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 338

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

^ Wiki defines it as a "software suite".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd

Building blocks for a "Linux" system.

Last i heard linux was just a kernel.

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#9 2019-01-18 17:49:01

twoion
ほやほや
Registered: 2015-08-10
Posts: 2,424

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

S7.L wrote:

^ Wiki defines it as a "software suite".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd

Building blocks for a "Linux" system.

Last i heard linux was just a kernel.

↑ Systemd is a good idea insofar as it's a good idea to have

userspace applications and processes -----> comprehensive, well documented and predictable interface to kernel functionality for interactive and programmatic use alike -----> kernel

That is, a 'system' layer. The idea is good. The bad idea is the lack of formally specified behaviour (not docs, real specs), the lack of QA and the lack of domain-specific excellence among the systemd development team, as shown in how systemd-timesyncd and systemd-resolvd are a dumpster fire.

Such a layer goes against the practice and lore among the old Linux distros. Which is understandable. But on the other hand, it serves the distros right to suffer a bit since they adopted systemd.  It also shows that the lack of specification -- which could have been devised before systemd came about, but wasn't, and POSIX stopped evolving while technologies progressed -- is a void which systemd just fills with an authoritative implementation instead of a specification, making the implementation the yardstick and the spec. Especially in the interactive area. How deep that void and desire for a unified userspace base layer is is shown by the adaption rate and success of systemd.

Ultimately, a system which simply configures itself according to a rule set / declaration is superior to one with which you have to painstakenly interface imperatively telling it to establish a certain state. Systemd is a brick on the road to that, NixOS and friends are another, and Initscripts or other imperative approaches used to define system state are quite a bit behind but still in sight.

When doing big-picture system architecture, it's important not to focus on the tools but on the execution of a sound principle that models all interactions between components appropiately and if not, to evolve a base model in order to reach that goal. Which is why I don't care about initscripts vs systemd vs anything because these are just implementation detail.

Disagreement and fatigue are just part of the human condition.


Tempus fugit

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#10 2019-01-18 18:29:38

bigbenaugust
Member
From: unc.edu / the 919 / KIGX
Registered: 2017-05-20
Posts: 133

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

twoion wrote:

That is, a 'system' layer. The idea is good. The bad idea is the lack of formally specified behaviour (not docs, real specs), the lack of QA and the lack of domain-specific excellence among the systemd development team, as shown in how systemd-timesyncd and systemd-resolvd are a dumpster fire.

YES!

.. so where's the devuan-based BL? wink


--Ben
BL / MX / Raspbian... and a whole bunch of RHEL boxes. :)

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#11 2019-01-18 20:03:05

THX1138
Member
Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 191

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

Truthfully I dont know what to make of systemd. I am no linux genius by any stretch of the imagination. I just think of myself as an ordinary user who doesnt even understand half of what linux developers are talking about anyway. From my limited understanding of things those against systemd are basically asking "what is the point of adding another layer of interface between the kernel and the user. Those for systemd appear to be saying that it makes things more sane and conditions the demands on the kernel. From my perspective, as someone who just wants linux servers and desktops to work I have to say that I believe linux has become a lot more stable as a desktop OS since systemd. I know next to nothing about how it works at a fundamental low level. I just see the high level effects and believe linux distros are more stable. Maybe it's just a coincidence I dont know


The telephone is an antiquity - you never know who is calling, there is no image, it is an outmoded product which constantly disrupts work (Ralf Hutter (Kraftwerk)) ps: my wife knows how much I dislike being disrupted at Work - Ralf Hutter hit the nail on the head there

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#12 2019-01-18 20:18:17

DeepDayze
Member
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 706

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

bigbenaugust wrote:
twoion wrote:

That is, a 'system' layer. The idea is good. The bad idea is the lack of formally specified behaviour (not docs, real specs), the lack of QA and the lack of domain-specific excellence among the systemd development team, as shown in how systemd-timesyncd and systemd-resolvd are a dumpster fire.

YES!

.. so where's the devuan-based BL? wink

That could well happen if the forces make it to come to be  devil

AntiX and MX Linux are two distros that are systemd free afaik.


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#13 2019-01-18 23:35:47

Bearded_Blunder
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From: Seat: seat0; vc7
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 730

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

bigbenaugust wrote:

.. so where's the devuan-based BL? wink

Visit the github page for the netinstall script, look at the forks, there's one, I can't vouch for it though.

That said, most of BL will work, I ran the netinstall script onto Devuan not long back (with a few edits to make it semi-compatible) , leaves you with a few issues though, this n that not working, mainly visual, & policykit was messed up, nothing beyond someone fixing or working around.

I have an install on top of Debian Buster using sysvinit too, but it's a tad flaky & policykit is similarly busted, apparently a new enough version can be compiled to use elogind libs rather than systemd libs, but I've not found the compile options to tweak with the debian source to get it operative that way even using the new-enough source from experimental, just installing it has session tracking broken systemd & elogind use different tracking methods.  Most issues that result can be worked around though, even with the standard policykit built against systemd in place.  I'd not call it stable though, updates break things.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#14 2019-01-19 03:26:39

bigbenaugust
Member
From: unc.edu / the 919 / KIGX
Registered: 2017-05-20
Posts: 133

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

DeepDayze wrote:

That could well happen if the forces make it to come to be  devil
AntiX and MX Linux are two distros that are systemd free afaik.

I like both.

MX has the interesting caveat of using sysvinit for the system and systemd for user sessions. antiX goes further in that direction and goes back to consolekit (I think that is what they use).

I'll have to check the GitHub page for the netinstall script... >:)

I ran an antiX base install and then the BL netinstall on top of it in a VM. Once I switched to lightdm from slim, the only thing missing/non-functional was bl-exit. Pretty boring, really. But systemd-free.

May have to try it with devuan for a little excitement.

Last edited by bigbenaugust (2019-01-25 20:29:32)


--Ben
BL / MX / Raspbian... and a whole bunch of RHEL boxes. :)

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#15 2019-01-19 03:42:16

Bearded_Blunder
Dodging A Bullet
From: Seat: seat0; vc7
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 730

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

bigbenaugust wrote:

MX has the interesting caveat of using sysvinit for the system and systemd for user sessions

Which used to be the easy/reliable way to do it in Debian, till systemd-shim went away in Buster & later that combo can't be done anymore, consolekit got pulled too (official reason, unmaintained for ages || conspiracy theory, makes avoiding systemd harder) <--<< decide for yourself.  Unmaintained is true in both cases though. I had to hack about with elogind. On Devuan you may use elogind or may use consolekit depending.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#16 2019-01-19 03:49:07

DeepDayze
Member
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 706

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

Bearded_Blunder wrote:
bigbenaugust wrote:

MX has the interesting caveat of using sysvinit for the system and systemd for user sessions

Which used to be the easy/reliable way to do it in Debian, till systemd-shim went away in Buster & later that combo can't be done anymore, consolekit got pulled too (official reason, unmaintained for ages || conspiracy theory, makes avoiding systemd harder) <--<< decide for yourself.  Unmaintained is true in both cases though. I had to hack about with elogind. On Devuan you may use elogind or may use consolekit depending.

Guess that makes Devuan all the more appealing if Systemd seems to go into undesirable direction and I may try Devuan out as I been kind of leery of it as it was pretty much deemed to be alpha grade. Wonder how good is Devuan compared with plain Debian.

Would be cool to do a base install of Devuan and then trying to run the BL netinstall script.

Last edited by DeepDayze (2019-01-19 03:49:47)


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#17 2019-01-19 04:19:29

Bearded_Blunder
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Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 730

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

Would be cool to do a base install of Devuan and then trying to run the BL netinstall script.

Can be done, you need some edits though, I have some notes somewhere, though the needed changes can be found by running the script repeatedly & fixing when it breaks.

Some bunsen-?? packages are broken if you do, and things like adding backports from bl-welcome would be silly.. you'd end up with mixed Debian Devuan sources. I tried with the Devuan testing branch (beowulf), as opposed to stable and found policykit broken, or at least the auth-agent, session tracking issues, it could certainly be made to work as a setup kinda "well enough", but it'd take more effort than I was willing to invest to make it work well/properly, I was aiming only to check something specific, not get a full working setup.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#18 2019-01-19 05:24:18

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,006

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

Ok warning all over the place post. Errrrr, aka: RANT. big_smile

In many ways find myself approving of heavy handed development practices as regards gnu/Linux. Apparently the init system really needed an overhaul and Poettering was the guy selected to head up the development. To me that indicates he's a highly skilled developer who has the experience to handle a project like this and see it through. Else why would he be chosen for it and given such responsibility ?

Think too many still think gnu/Linux is some shiny happy people holding hands, everyone's opinion is equal and valued ( even if they don't have the slightest clue what they're talking about etc etc.) IT'S NOT ... look at any number of resources on the topic, ie: Linus Torvalds quotes or however many others. It's a one hand, washes the other, you scratch my back, I yours affair.

So if I try to put myself in Poettering's shoes, I've got 14gazillion people who don't even know what an init system is or does, endlessly griping about how things should be. People lacking technical skills to the degree they can't even be considered competent desktop users. Some very big big-wigs in the gnu/Linux world have the confidence in giving the guy the responsibility and authority to handle this project.

I don't at all blame him for pretty much giving the armchair warriors, sideline quarterbacks etc so forth the finger and getting on with what he's been asked to do. In a manner he see's fit. Hopefully to the best of his (and the associated team's) abilities. In the end they are the one's with the skill, the responsibility and are going down in history as key people involved in the project. All the clueless folks whining and griping about are just background noise and static.

As for getting rid of a qualified developer (or not abiding their wishes to the point they quit the project), to me also understandable. Poettering is the commander n chief in this, end of day, it's his call. Assuming this was done for some intelligent reason. Surely the name of a network interface wasn't changed just for the heck of it ?

Too many chiefs, not enough indians. big_smile

Pointlessness cont: In many ways I see this as being related to something which endlessly aggravates me. That being gnu/Linux seemingly being in a position where it's held hostage by the endusers, the userbase. Despite the fact that they/we make no real contribution to maintaining or developing the platform nor in general have any real degree of knowledge or skill which would allow the vast majority of gnu/Linux users to even have a meaningful or valuable opinion to offer on technical topics.

I mean back in the day, when geeks actually had to have considerable knowledge and tech skill to even install, configure and run gnu/Linux. Where it was likely they actually did have significant understanding or valuable insights to offer or even was common place for those among the  user base to actively be contributing to one or more ongoing software projects. Then yeah ... can see where such people's opinions would be more meaningful. Verses a situation where you have tonnes of people who has contributed zero, barely know's anything about all the associated topics and really can't even be considered a meaningful desktop user ? Trying to tell upstream what to do and how they are going to be allowed to do it ? Yeah again ... can see telling them to go play with the other children and leave the work up to the adults chosen for x-job.

Honestly Poettering has received quite a few death threats from morons due to heading up Systemd. No doubt many of these gnu/nix zealots don't even know what an init system does or how one works. BUT HEY DANG IT, I'M GONNA KILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY !!!! THIS VIOLATES OUR PRECIOUS UNIX TRADITIONS YOU BASTID !!!!

I've been using ubuntu for 3 months dang it, I won't be treated this way !!! big_smile

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-01-19 05:25:39)

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#19 2019-01-19 05:28:39

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,006

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

Don't get me wrong, are plenty of times upstream does something that doesn't tickle my fancy or changes get rolled out I don't like. End of the day though, feel it's up to me as an end user to do for myself and to do the best I can with the all the unbelievable software I've been given. Rather than whining, crying and making demands upon the people who actually do the work to change things to be as I prefer them, shrugs.

As regards this case, am sure the vast majority won't have the slightest clue their network interface has changed, won't have the slightest need to know and those who do, will have the skills and knowledge to quickly sort it out.


Which this can also be seen with one of my open source idols, Linus Torvalds, he ends up getting massive amounts of flak because of his realistic and results driven non-politically-correct outlooks and behaviors. Once again though, he's the head of kernel development and no doubt uniquely qualified for the position. I like his attitude and style in how he goes about things. Apparently he tends to keep himself isolated and only deals with a select group he knows he can work well with. Though doesn't do this, ok, let's hold 400 meetings about every single detail, let's all group hug every 42secs and do everything so diplomatically that nobody's little feelers could ever, even in the slightest be hurt, cause that would be bad and make me so sad.

Nope, xyz-developer says or does something stupid. LT says ... nope, that's stupid, moving on now. big_smile

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-01-19 05:48:34)

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#20 2019-01-19 05:45:04

Bearded_Blunder
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From: Seat: seat0; vc7
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 730

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

Well to be fair, it does fly in the face of Unix traditions.. "Do one thing and do it well" being the main one.. Did init need an overhaul? Yes, but personal opinion, something like Gentoo's OpenRC was the way to go, systemd is too much like Winows or Mac.. it's everywhere in the system to the point it's the entire package or nothing (or a big fight). SysV & OpenRC do init (and in OpenRC's case service supervision) and hand off to users choice of other software to do other one-things well.

I dislike it enough I'd switch to Gentoo if my skill level was sufficient, it's not though.. oh I can install it, and get one of the DE metapackages up and running... but maintaining it is something that really taxes my skillset.. Systemd is something that's kinda OK till something goes wrong.. then it's even harder to fix than Gentoo, forces reinstalls on me 'cause it's too hard to fix.  Or it changes or disrespects settings I set.. which is what drove me from Windows to getting into Linux at all.. and with systemd running the show.. I can no longer escape & be sure settings  I set stay set.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#21 2019-01-19 05:51:05

damo
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Registered: 2015-08-20
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Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

BLizgreat! wrote:

I've been using ubuntu for 3 months dang it, I won't be treated this way !!! big_smile

Can I send that to the BL Quotes thread!!? wink


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#22 2019-01-19 05:59:41

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,006

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

^^ BB: Different strokes etc etc. big_smile

Better hop out of this thread, as <nameless>d is one of those subjects. Have pondered installing Gentoo for a longggggg time too. Then I visit it's user manual, a couple pages into it and I come back to my senses and am forced to admit I'm too damn lazy to mess with all of that !

Lol ... of course Damo, glad you're back and hoping you're well recovered my friend.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-01-19 06:01:59)

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#23 2019-01-19 07:00:12

ohnonot
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Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,773
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Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

So - this has been making the rounds on various forums.
First of all a big thank you to THX1138:
This is the first time I see somebody adding context!
I took a while to read through the issue - here's a summary:

  1. biebl opens an issue where systemd breaks a udev rule that has been working for a long time - apparently something that debian uses internally, so it would break existing debian installations?

  2. poettering replies noncommittally, maybe even dismissively, just refering to other, already closed issues (but in a way that shows that he understands the issue)

  3. biebl insists that the new behaviour breaks things and is therefore bad

  4. other people resist, which makes biebl's comments increasingly ill-tempered, culminating in: "I guess I'll stop filing bug reports"

  5. poettering and yet other people think about how this can be fixed so that both parties are happy (keep the new feature, but in a way that it doesn't break existing configuration) - and in the end they do, and the same day they come up with a commit that (apparently) fixes what biebl reported

  6. unfortunately, by this time, yet another systemd shitstorm has kicked loose and biebl made their grant exit already

I might be biased because I've been using archlinux since 2014, at which time it's been using systemd for 2 years already, but to my layman eyes most "anti systemd arguments" crumble to dust upon closer inspection, just like this one.
also i cannot imagine anybody on archlinux' developer team throwing a hissy fit like that.
sorry biebl, you overreacted.
understandable, given the general athmosphere around systemd and debian especially, but still.

and unlike many people, i admit that i'm not a software developer and therefore wisely keep my mouth shut about things I don't fully understand.

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#24 2019-01-19 08:50:04

orionH
Member
Registered: 2017-11-15
Posts: 17

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

ohnonot wrote:

and unlike many people, i admit that i'm not a software developer and therefore wisely keep my mouth shut about things I don't fully understand.

Amen.

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#25 2019-01-19 13:46:22

S7.L
Member
Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 338

Re: Systemd maintainer for Debian quits after spat with Poettering

ohnonot, i dont believe mbieble had any sort of fit or dummy spit, it doesn't show in his messages. It sounds like he is stepping back to have a break and to what he perceives as stupidity in what is going on with systemd as he obviously knows more than you or I about it.

I mean if you perceive "What's going on is just too stupid/crazy." in regards to his comments on freedesktop as having a fit seems a bit of an exaggeration imo.

Last edited by S7.L (2019-01-19 13:49:11)

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