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#1 2018-03-26 06:07:10

rbh
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Add mc?

Hi!

I would realy appreciate if you add Midnight Commander to the base installed applications.
Is not many extra kb...


// Regards rbh

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#2 2018-03-26 06:58:52

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Add mc?

Why do you want it added to the base install?

It doesn't take long to run `apt install mc` and we already have a file manager — I don't think it's sensible to ship more than one application for each function.

Anyway, ranger is a far superior command-line file manager so shouldn't we use that instead?

I think you can see the problem here wink


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#3 2018-03-30 11:12:21

rbh
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Re: Add mc?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Why do you want it added to the base install?

Installing mc, is the first thing I do on an BunselLabs installation. If I don't have an internetconnection, I can't install it.
After that, i edit sources.list, add local repository, from server or usb-disk.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

and we already have a file manager — I don't think it's sensible to ship more than one application for each function.

No ncurserbased for the cli.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Anyway, ranger is a far superior command-line file manager so shouldn't we use that instead?

I do not like ragner. but, i coluld live with that choice or prefarable lfm or vifm, or...
But the data on https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php shows that an overvelming majority prefer mc.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

I think you can see the problem here wink

Choisies is often hard... A good realitycheck can ease and aid...

I think that a smal ncurserbased filemanager added to the baseinstallation, would add value to the distro.

Just a suggestion.


// Regards rbh

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#4 2018-03-30 12:15:08

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Add mc?

rbh wrote:

No ncurserbased for the cli

That is a good point, an ncurses file manager would be useful if the desktop doesn't load.

rbh wrote:

But the data on https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php shows that an overvelming majority prefer mc

This is also a good point but ranger is only ~689KiB whereas mc weighs in at ~7,007KiB so I would still vote for ranger.

What does everybody else think?


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#5 2018-03-30 12:29:04

johnraff
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Re: Add mc?

I don't see why having an ncurses based file manager would be necessary in order to get the internet connection set up.


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#6 2018-03-30 12:31:54

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Add mc?

^ Me neither, what has an internet connection to do with this?

I was thinking that if there was a problem with the GUI desktop then a decent ncurses file manager would be helpful for troubleshooting.


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#7 2018-03-30 15:33:16

cloverskull
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Re: Add mc?

My contention is that BL exists as an ideal lightweight GUI-intended distortion, so I’d skip adding crufty things like this. But, it’s pretty negligible in size, so...  *shrug*

OTOH, maybe we can fork this into another thread, but I’m curious what people think the ideal CLI-intended distortion would look like. Anyone curious to discuss?

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#8 2018-03-30 19:06:25

hhh
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Re: Add mc?

cloverskull wrote:

OTOH, maybe we can fork this into another thread, but I’m curious what people think the ideal CLI-intended distortion would look like. Anyone curious to discuss?

@cloverskull, thanks for starting a new thread for this OT discussion! smile

https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic.php?id=4696

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#9 2018-03-30 19:19:50

hhh
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Re: Add mc?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

I was thinking that if there was a problem with the GUI desktop then a decent ncurses file manager would be helpful for troubleshooting.

Do you think ls, mv, rm and cp aren't sufficient?

Ranger uses a lot of vim's keybinds, it's not going to of any use to a novice.

Besides, the way to repair a failed install is with our Live image, isn't it?

I'm voting no on this, having a favorite specific application doesn't make it so for everyone. Swap thunar with mc, done. Don't have Internet? Use thunar until you do, it's a very nice GUI file manager.

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#10 2018-03-30 20:09:03

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Add mc?

hhh wrote:

Do you think ls, mv, rm and cp aren't sufficient?

The pure shell is certainly sufficient but file managers really do make the job a *lot* easier — ranger allows the contents of configuration files and directories to be checked very quickly and simply compared to the more laborious manual method.

Ranger uses a lot of vim's keybinds, it's not going to of any use to a novice.

I actually use ranger with the arrow keys and no vim keybinds at all, it also works very well with the mouse.

the way to repair a failed install is with our Live image, isn't it?

Lesser degrees of b0rkage could result in a system that won't boot the desktop but works otherwise so it would be nice for people to be able to fix stuff like that without having to find a live stick (IMO).


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#11 2018-03-30 21:07:56

hhh
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Re: Add mc?

Ok, I'm fine with adding ranger to the full ISO if the rest of the team agrees.

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#12 2018-03-30 23:26:16

johnraff
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Re: Add mc?

rbh wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Why do you want it added to the base install?

Installing mc, is the first thing I do on an BunselLabs installation. If I don't have an internetconnection, I can't install it.

This is what I meant about the internet connection, and I don't see why a user who wants mc or ranger can't just do an apt-get.

There's no end to this - everyone has a favourite app they'd like included.

I can think of two categories where we should look favourably on adding something:
1) If it might make setting up a network connection possible, or much easier. (Avoid the Catch 22.)
2) If it's obscure and users might not have otherwise known about it and how cool it is...

I don't think mc or ranger fit either of those.

EDIT: Thought of two more categories:

3) If it makes the distro much more accessible to a new user, with out adding overmuch to disk space or system resource use.
4) If it adds to the usefulness of the live system for diagnostic and theraputic purposes.

But I still don't think mc fits, sorry.

Last edited by johnraff (2018-04-02 07:29:50)


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#13 2018-03-30 23:34:02

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Add mc?

johnraff wrote:

I can think of two categories where we should look favourably on adding something:
1) If it might make setting up a network connection possible, or much easier. (Avoid the Catch 22.)
2) If it's obscure and users might not have otherwise known about it and how cool it is...

Yes, OK, that sounds eminently sensible.

I would venture that perhaps ranger falls into the second category — I find it *much* more useful than thunar for checking directory trees and file contents — but it's really not worth arguing about.


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#14 2018-03-30 23:35:22

hhh
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Re: Add mc?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
johnraff wrote:

I can think of two categories where we should look favourably on adding something:
1) If it might make setting up a network connection possible, or much easier. (Avoid the Catch 22.)
2) If it's obscure and users might not have otherwise known about it and how cool it is...

Yes, OK, that sounds eminently sensible.

Third vote here, done.

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#15 2018-03-31 13:26:23

rbh
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From: Sweden/Vasterbotten/Rusfors
Registered: 2016-08-11
Posts: 445

Re: Add mc?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Why do you want it added to the base install?

rbh wrote:

Installing mc, is the first thing I do on an BunselLabs installation. If I don't have an internetconnection, I can't install it.

johnraff wrote:

This is what I meant about the internet connection, and I don't see why a user who wants mc or ranger can't just do an apt-get.

Here in the south of Lapplands inland, it is not so seldom people does not have an Internet Connection...
Most of them who live in the coutryside, depends om wireless connection which is not allwys up.

johnraff wrote:

There's no end to this - everyone has a favourite app they'd like included.

Quite true. But, I was thinking more of function than explicit application...
I think of Bunsenlabs as suitable for an average pc-user and suitable to use for those that don't have experinced linux before. There hav been much thinking on adding helpfiles and links for system/user settings. Bunsenlabs is also good for old hardware with little RAM.
MC is easy to use for the avarage user. The deb packages mc and mc-data, add I think 1.2 MB to disk. To that comes some dependency libraries. I think it adds up to 8 MB. (At least for i386.)
When running, mc consumes 3.5 MiB, but ranger wants nearly the double: 9.2 MiB.

Furthermore, none of the big rescue-dists, Clonezilla Live, Gparted, Grml, Finnix or SystemRescueCD, offer ranger. They offer mc.

Last edited by rbh (2018-03-31 13:27:22)


// Regards rbh

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#16 2018-03-31 13:37:23

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Add mc?

rbh wrote:

Here in the south of Lapplands inland, it is not so seldom people does not have an Internet Connection...
Most of them who live in the coutryside, depends om wireless connection which is not allwys up.

Yes but why do you require a file manager to bring the connection up?

In Debian-based systems it can be done from the command line with nothing more than a shell and some redirection to /etc/network/interfaces:

https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse#W … d_WPA2-PSK


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#17 2018-03-31 14:44:06

martix
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Re: Add mc?

Although it's surely a good FM, but mc is an "apt install" away and for many users it might be just clutter.

Sometimes there are tools which I just discover and ask myself: Why nobody told me about it before? E.g. CLI Companion, which is probably the "obscure and users might not have otherwise known about it and how cool it is..."-category. But probably for the majority just clutter as well.

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#18 2018-04-01 07:45:20

rbh
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Posts: 445

Re: Add mc?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Yes but why do you require a file manager to bring the connection up?

I said the opposite: to be able to install curserbased fileamanager, one need a working internet-connection.


// Regards rbh

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#19 2018-04-01 13:00:34

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Add mc?

OK, yes, I see what you mean — you don't have a reliable connection so you would like a CLI file manager (preferrably mc) added to the base system so that you don't have to download it afterwards, right?

So the question then becomes: what does mc do that thunar cannot?


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#20 2018-04-01 19:02:07

rbh
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Posts: 445

Re: Add mc?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

OK, yes, I see what you mean — you don't have a reliable connection so you would like a CLI file manager (preferrably mc) added to the base system so that you don't have to download it afterwards, right?

So the question then becomes: what does mc do that thunar cannot?

When I move files, I prefer twinpanel mode. I see source and i see destination before execution.
Creating soft links goes much faster. With thunar, first mark file, then choose Create link, then move it to the right place and last remove "link to" from linkname. With mc, open target in one panel, mark source in the other and choose symlink. I dont think it is possible to edit symlinks with thunar.

The mc viewer is much faster if I need to browse huge text or binary files. If I need to look in an iso-file, or an big archive, it is very much fastor to enter and navigate with mc than with thunar wait when isomaster or archiver i starting. If I use my desktop pc, the witing is ok, but on the 15 years old laptops, with 500, 750 and 1000 mb Ram...

Mc is, I think more configurable than tunar.

And it is there when (if) X is malfunctioning.
That happens then and then when you experiment :-).


// Regards rbh

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#21 2018-04-01 19:33:25

iMBeCil
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From: Edrychwch o'ch cwmpas
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 767

Re: Add mc?

^IMHO, with unreliable internet connection, you have much bigger problem than whether mc is or isn't included in BL. 'bl-welcome' and generally 'apt-get update && apt-get upgrade' come to mind ... Not to mention the 'problem' of installing other non-preinstalled software as Libreoffice suite, or GIMP, just to name a few.

Perhaps, you should consider downloading 'mc' deb package to local machine (possibly with dependencies), while you are downloading BL image ... and then keep it somewhere for once. And install it from disk with 'dpkg -i <mc_package_name.deb>'.

Personally, I wouldn't include neither mc nor ranger (although I use solely ranger as a file manager), since the BL distro should not become the 'exhibit distro', offering several applications doing the same job, and basically become too bloat with stuff. (But this is just my opinion, devs will decide what is the best.)


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#22 2018-04-01 21:15:40

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Add mc?

rbh wrote:

And it is there when (if) X is malfunctioning.
That happens then and then when you experiment :-).

^ I think this is the only valid argument and it only holds for the few who are installing without reliable internet access, it is also a convenience rather than a necessity so I remain unconvinced, sorry.


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#23 2018-04-02 01:23:00

hhh
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Re: Add mc?

I think this has been discussed enough, so I'm going to close this topic.

Sorry, rbh. In our three years, this request has never been raised (the closest was to use PCManFM), and we just don't think there's a need for it. Maybe our Live image doesn't fit your needs, but it's not enough reason for us to change it, especially this close to a release.

Please open a new topic if you feel this issue requires more discussion, and thanks for contributing to the development of Helium!

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#24 2018-04-02 07:32:01

johnraff
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Re: Add mc?

(Added two more possible cases where I though apps had a chance of being chosen for addition. Doesn't change the course of this thread though.)


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