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#1 2015-10-28 10:44:19

CooKiECruNChEr43
Member
Registered: 2015-10-17
Posts: 64

How long did it take you?

How long did it take you to create Crunchbang Linux? How many hours? Did you use something like Linux from Scratch?

This is a typical newbie question but I would appreciate it if you would answer it.

**************
[Moved from "Elementary School]

Last edited by damo (2015-10-28 10:47:02)

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#2 2015-10-28 10:55:48

damo
....moderator....
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 4,878

Re: How long did it take you?

Well, a couple of points -

- This is BunsenLabs, so you would have to contact @corenominal to find out what he did to produce Crunchbang.

- The basic isos are from those supplied by Debian; live build was configured; several people have made artwork, themes, scripts, configurations, packages, repos; lots of time talking behind the scenes and checking things.

The process was started last February, approximately, and we are still tweaking! Thousands of manhours probably.

(And it is not a usual "noob" question!")

Last edited by damo (2015-10-28 10:56:34)


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#3 2015-10-28 11:05:49

CooKiECruNChEr43
Member
Registered: 2015-10-17
Posts: 64

Re: How long did it take you?

Of course I meant Bunsen Labs. And not an usual noob question? Maybe I am an expert now, lol. Thank you for your answer.

Last edited by CooKiECruNChEr43 (2015-10-28 11:06:59)

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#4 2015-10-28 13:46:06

hhh
That's it!
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 7,465
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Re: How long did it take you?

To add to what damo said, the ISOs were created using Debian live-build...
http://live.debian.net/
http://live.debian.net/manual/4.x/html/ … al.en.html
https://packages.debian.org/jessie/misc/live-build

Each ISO has to be built on a system that uses the architecture you want to create, so I had to add a partition to my disk and install Debian 64 bit in addition to the 32 bit partition I normally use.

On my laptop, each build takes between 1 and 2 hours, depending on if I'm using cached packages or not (see the manual). I was pretty lucky in figuring out the sometimes confusing manual well enough to create a working ISO, but I had to build several ISOs before we came up with one suitable for general testing, and several more for each release we've done. Heck, just to correctly implement the BunsenLabs-branded installer took half a dozen tries (there's almost no documentation for that).

I can't speak for twoion's work in setting up the web presence and creating the repository packages and torrents, or johnraff and damo's in transferring and improving on all the #! scripts, or Sector11, Ututo and everyone else's who has contributed, but between themes and builds I've spent dozens and dozens of hours on it.

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#5 2015-10-28 14:42:46

photonucleon
Thursday
From: out of that impossible sky
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 296

Re: How long did it take you?

damo wrote:

The process was started last February, approximately, and we are still tweaking! Thousands of manhours probably.

Hours for which I, for one, am very grateful and thankful! big_smile wink


The servant lifted off a kind of ottoman a long peacock-blue drapery, rather of the nature of a domino, on the front of which was emblazoned a large golden sun, and which was splashed here and there with flaming stars and crescents. “You’re to be dressed as Thursday, sir,” said the valet somewhat affably.

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#6 2015-10-28 22:13:24

KrunchTime
Member
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 857

Re: How long did it take you?

photonucleon wrote:
damo wrote:

The process was started last February, approximately, and we are still tweaking! Thousands of manhours probably.

Hours for which I, for one, am very grateful and thankful! big_smile wink

+1 and waiting for the donate button on the main site.  wink

Last edited by KrunchTime (2015-10-28 22:28:11)

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#7 2015-10-29 08:10:43

pvsage
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Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,433

Re: How long did it take you?

If you're talking build time, I think the person you'd want to hear from is twoion; he's the one who actually builds the live images.  From what I hear, once you've set the proper hooks, the build process itself is just a matter of processor time.

Actual development, on the other hand, requires multiple massively parallel processors (neural nets, i.e. human minds) spending countless hours on the various details.  IMHO, johnraff did a great deal of the heavy lifting with his "Wally" project at the CrunchBang forums.


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#8 2015-10-29 14:52:28

nobody0
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Posts: 664

Re: How long did it take you?

pvsage wrote:

If you're talking build time, I think the person you'd want to hear from is twoion; he's the one who actually builds the live images.  From what I hear, once you've set the proper hooks, the build process itself is just a matter of processor time.

Is the build time is that long, because the live-build scripts are building every package from source?

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#9 2015-10-29 14:54:21

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
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Re: How long did it take you?

pvsage wrote:

If you're talking build time, I think the person you'd want to hear from is twoion; he's the one who actually builds the live images.  From what I hear, once you've set the proper hooks, the build process itself is just a matter of processor time.

I do the builds, twoion creates the torrents from my ISOs and the Bunsen debs from the GitHub sources. Early on, I gave twoion all the live-build configs I had been using and a walk-through and he came back with "Well, I've built something."

"What we got back didn't live long, fortunately."

live-build is not all that well documented, and the Debian installer even less so. It's been a lot of trial and error, and very, very, very time consuming.

/vuvuzela

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#10 2015-10-29 14:57:04

pvsage
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Re: How long did it take you?

@hhh:  Didn't realize the builds were yours; you do great work!  FWIW, I was just going off what the baconator had told me about the live build process.

@ostrolek: My only experience with the live build process is a minimal Debian installation, and that took about 20 minutes on a triple-core AMD machine; take from that what thou wilt.

Last edited by pvsage (2015-10-29 15:01:42)


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#11 2015-10-29 15:45:59

hhh
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Re: How long did it take you?

Build time is dependent on processor speed, how many packages are being installed and whether they have already been cached or not, meaning the first build will be the longest. live-build doesn't build packages from source but it does have to download all the debs at least once...
http://live.debian.net/manual/4.x/html/ … n.html#321

If you've ever done a netinstall or a dist-upgrade, you know how long it takes to, for example, install or upgrade Xorg. live-build is in effect doing an install or an upgrade of the entire system every time you do a build.

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#12 2015-10-29 16:13:50

nobody0
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Posts: 664

Re: How long did it take you?

How much time it takes to build one system with packages from Debian? More than 1 1/2 hour? Does the live-build create a live iso? Do you add the custom bunsenlabs apps after or before?

Yes, I install through netinstall, just the basics + xorg, then boot into the system and install the rest.

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#13 2015-10-29 16:21:00

pvsage
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Re: How long did it take you?

This part I can answer:

ostrolek wrote:

Does the live-build create a live iso?

Yes; "It does exactly what it says on the tin."

For the rest, you'll have to ask Hasselhoff, assuming you can get back on his good side.


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#14 2015-10-29 16:26:46

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
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Re: How long did it take you?

Read post #4, read the manual, read the man pages, run the provided tutorials, etc...

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#15 2015-10-29 16:27:10

nobody0
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Re: How long did it take you?

pvsage wrote:

This part I can answer:

ostrolek wrote:

Does the live-build create a live iso?

Yes; "It does exactly what it says on the tin."

What I meant was, does it make a live iso together with the bunsenlabs apps.

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#16 2015-10-29 16:28:49

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
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Re: How long did it take you?

You have eyes but you don't see...
http://live.debian.net/manual/4.x/html/ … n.html#448

/hand holding

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#17 2015-10-29 17:03:11

nobody0
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Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 664

Re: How long did it take you?

hhh wrote:

You have eyes but you don't see...
http://live.debian.net/manual/4.x/html/ … n.html#448

/hand holding

I don't need any hand holding. You say it takes so much time to create the live iso, that's why the question. Its not that hard to understand the live-manual, but I never tried to build a live iso that way.

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#18 2015-10-29 17:56:42

tknomanzr
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From: Around the Bend
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,029

Re: How long did it take you?

It basically creates a chroot environment, downloads all the debs, including those for BunsenLabs I wold presume and install them into the chroot with some caveats (initrd changes are blocked from triggering, for example.) It will also install the live packages needed to buiild a live iso assuming you configured it to do so. Once it is done with the build process, it goes into mksquashfs to build up the iso. It will then do some cleanup.

This is a rough idea of how it goes, and yes even on a good machine it can take quite some time.

But aside from that is how much hhh has to keep track of in order to make sure that all the little details end up in the live build. I have enough trouble keeping track of my own changes, let alone those of an entire community wanting this detail or that.

Last edited by tknomanzr (2015-10-29 17:56:56)

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#19 2015-10-29 18:25:18

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 7,465
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Re: How long did it take you?

Fortunately, I'm not alone in that department, but even then things get lost in the shuffle. tongue

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#20 2015-10-29 19:34:42

nobody0
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Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 664

Re: How long did it take you?

tknomanzr wrote:

It basically creates a chroot environment, downloads all the debs, including those for BunsenLabs I wold presume and install them into the chroot with some caveats (initrd changes are blocked from triggering, for example.) It will also install the live packages needed to buiild a live iso assuming you configured it to do so. Once it is done with the build process, it goes into mksquashfs to build up the iso. It will then do some cleanup.

This is a rough idea of how it goes, and yes even on a good machine it can take quite some time.

Thank you for the write-up.
That's what it does. I read the whole manual, before I asked whether(why) it takes so long. If hhh didn't mention it, I wouldn't even have thought about it. I've just been reading every file in live-build scripts. It is a headache to build a live iso this way. You are not really sure of the result, until you try it out.

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#21 2015-10-30 04:51:50

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 5,231
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Re: How long did it take you?

tknomanzr wrote:

aside from that is how much hhh has to keep track of in order to make sure that all the little details end up in the live build. I have enough trouble keeping track of my own changes, let alone those of an entire community wanting this detail or that.

Luckily most of the Bunsen-specific stuff is in the Debian packages, so, in that department at least, hhh just has to make sure to use the latest from the BL repo, which twoion in turn has built from the repos on GitHub, which the rest of us have been tweaking...


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
In case you forget, the rules.

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#22 2015-10-30 07:56:29

nobody0
Disabled account
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 664

Re: How long did it take you?

Wouldn't it be easier or faster to create a live iso from your installed (from netinstall + tweaks) than through live-build?

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#23 2015-10-30 15:52:28

hhh
That's it!
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 7,465
Website

Re: How long did it take you?

Debian uses live-build to produce their Live images, Philip used live-build to produce #! and BunsenLabs will use live-build to produce ours. live-build creates ISOs 'the Debian way'. You can research on your own the merits and disadvantages to this.

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#24 2015-10-31 00:54:48

tknomanzr
BL Die Hard
From: Around the Bend
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,029

Re: How long did it take you?

The software itself is really not all that difficult. The difficulty lies in the sparse documentation. I basically just had to fumble around, read the manpages, then the wiki, then fumble some more til I got it working. Of course, the wiki stuff is all written in that obtuse debian wiki style that has a way of leaving you wondering what you just read. I mean it's bad when the man pages made more sense to me than the wiki. For reference though, I have posted quite a bit of information with my experiments with the tool on the Crunchbang forums.

Last edited by tknomanzr (2015-10-31 00:55:28)

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#25 2015-10-31 08:42:18

pvsage
Internal Affairs
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,433

Re: How long did it take you?

In addition to the man pages, there's actually a Debian Live Build manual that one can read online or download.  About 90% of it is Debian Philosophy and "credit goes to this laundry list" and similar stuff that, frankly, smells like a paddock floor to me, but there is some good documentation buried in there.  I eventually dug my way to about a page and a half that walked me through a bare-bones live build before I got really sleepy again, and by the time I got back to the forums hhh had built the alpha images and corenominal was turning the lights off at #!.


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