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#76 2017-11-17 21:29:11

martix
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

I'm just curious: Firefox Quantum has been officially released three days ago.

How long will it take appr. till it gets into the debian stable repos?

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#77 2017-11-17 23:02:27

BLizgreat!
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

Personal opinion on that ? Ummmmm, about the the time, or maybe the next time a Debian release goes stable. big_smile It's not really funny and has long been a source of frustration for me, first the stupid iceweasel thing, now the weirdness with firefox-esr. You have several options, all of them would work just fine. You'll have many tell you not to run a mixed branch system, though with a tad of common sense, you'll encounter zero problems with any of the following. In order of advisement, though again ... they're all harmless.

a. Download directly from Mozilla for x86 or x86_64, then run it from a directory in /home/username. <== Have done this FOREVER, since #! Statler dys.

b. Hit up the Mozilla Firefox archive and do the same. <== This too, you can run multiple versions of FF no problem on a gnu/Linux OS. Even ancient ones.

c. Add a fully compatible Debian stable based distro's repositories to sources.list ie: As I did with LMDE2 or AntiX (if they have latest Firefox in their repo's don't know atm.) Then if you want to do it right take 20mins to learn about apt-pinning, if you don't simply #comment out that other distro's repo's in sources.list, after you've installed latest FF from it and "sudo apt-get update" afterwards.

d. Visit Mozilla's apt site, tell it you're running Debian testing and it'll tell you to add the Debian unstable repositories to sources.list, then install from there with ie: "sudo apt-get install -t unstable firefox" Again, someone can simply #comment out unstable repo's afterwards, update packages again, though again better to take the 20mins to learn a bit about apt-pin, then occasionally you can check for newer versions in whichever repositories in your sources.list "apt-cache policy firefox" will show install candidates and which repo they're in and you can then install those newer versions if upgrades are available. <== done forever too, no problems.

e. Gentoo style ! Depending on your hardware specs, spend 1-2hrs compiling Firefox from source. <== Not doing it but if you truly want to be a Nix-ninja, that's how they do it.

Messing around it's just a web-browser, not some massively important system package(s). Anyone tracking Debian stable branch or anything based on it, who doesn't have the latest version of Firefox available is only because they're choosing not to have it. Can be somewhat of a mixed blessing sometimes too as in a much beloved extension which isn't going to get ported to newer Firefox. Though again ... easy enough to download a version from Mozilla's archives to use that extension indefinitely.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-17 23:05:54)

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#78 2017-11-17 23:58:24

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

martix wrote:

How long will it take appr. till it gets into the debian stable repos?

The Debian release follows the ESR version of Firefox, I think this makes perfect sense in the context of the rest of the distribution and I for one would hate it if Debian decided to ship mainline FF with their official release.

As such, the next ESR version will be 59 and when Mozilla push that out Debian will package it up for whatever is stable then (and probably oldstable as well) so maybe by the time Lithium rolls around.

BLizgreat! wrote:

It's not really funny and has long been a source of frustration for me, first the stupid iceweasel thing, now the weirdness with firefox-esr.

It's not stupid or weird, the stable release of Debian should use the ESR version of FF, if you prefer buggy new software then use sid instead  tongue

EDIT: also, long live Iceweasel!

https://packages.debian.org/stretch/xul … l-branding

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2017-11-18 00:06:53)


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#79 2017-11-18 01:05:31

BLizgreat!
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

Man I hope you're trying to bait me. tongue Buggy eh, been running latest Firefox on all things Debian stable, mixed, Sid and everything inbetween since shortly after finding #! Statler, shrugs. Though if people would rather use dated versions of something like a web-browser, entirely up to them. Guessing options 1-5 outlined above makes things fairly clear, which I've done all except Gentoo style for going on 7 years w/o issue. There's all of no chance in hades, I'd ever spent 2 hours compiling a web-browser, shrugs. big_smile

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#80 2017-11-18 03:17:47

martix
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

That's a neat little guide there, thank you @BLiz!

I gave Quantum a try and it's definitely an improvement. The handling of the browser is very different - better - in comparison to the ESR version (at least that was my impression). I hope the add-ons I used to have will be coming in the future (some are there already).

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#81 2017-11-18 11:50:36

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

BLizgreat! wrote:

Man I hope you're trying to bait me. tongue

Oh yes  devil

been running latest Firefox on all things Debian stable, mixed, Sid and everything inbetween since shortly after finding #! Statler, shrugs.

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

It is a basic fact of programming that every new feature introduces the potential for new bugs and vulnerabilities, this is exactly why Mozilla provide an ESR version.

if people would rather use dated versions of something like a web-browser

The latest ESR version of Firefox (52.5) was released 2017-11-14 (the same day as the mainline v57) and Debian oldstable (upon which BunsenLabs is based) pushed that out the very next day.

That doesn't sound very dated to me.


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#82 2017-11-18 12:00:59

Steve
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

So what is the safer option, the Debian version or Mozilla's updated version?

I see it this way, Debian is in the business of developing stable OS's, Mozilla is in the business of making stable Web Browsers, so the two sort of meet half way as it were?

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#83 2017-11-18 12:41:59

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

Steve wrote:

So what is the safer option, the Debian version or Mozilla's updated version?

If by "safe" you mean the one least likely to have any new, unidentified bugs then it is the ESR version but it should be noted that the mainline type introduces new security-related features (but these may also introduce new bugs).

Also, it's not a matter of Debian vs. Mozilla because Debian themselves supply v57:

https://packages.debian.org/sid/firefox

I would always trust Debian to package correctly, I do not trust Mozilla in that respect.


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#84 2017-11-18 12:47:39

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

Steve wrote:

Debian is in the business of developing stable OS's, Mozilla is in the business of making stable Web Browsers, so the two sort of meet half way as it were?

Debian use the word "stable" to indicate that the package versions (and their associated APIs) do not change during the lifetime of the release, this is not true of mainline Firefox and another reason why ESR is better suited to the official release.


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#85 2017-11-18 12:51:26

Steve
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

sid is unstable. I dont think i would want an unstable repo on a stable system just so i could have the latest edition of firefox.

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#86 2017-11-18 12:53:03

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

^ No, but pure Debian sid actually works just fine as a desktop system and breaks far less frquently that you would expect.

Remember: "unstable" refers to the package versioning and sid always gets the upstream bug fixes first  glasses


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#87 2017-11-18 12:59:27

Steve
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

Yes i understand that Hoas, but bunsenlabs is based upon stable. That is what i am getting at, having unstable repos on a stable system seems kind of risky.

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#88 2017-11-18 13:12:43

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

Steve wrote:

having unstable repos on a stable system seems kind of risky.

Yes, very risky, I would never recommend that.

What I am saying is that I think BLizgreat! (and others like him) would find a Debian sid system more suited to their needs than a stable-based distribution like BunsenLabs.


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#89 2017-11-18 13:23:31

Steve
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

^ Myself i would just stick to whatever the FF version in Debian or any other distro had in there repos. But Bliz does say he has been doing what he does for awhile in regards to web browsers, maybe just luck of the draw and not a one sized suits all type gig. I think the safer option would be to accept Debians packages for whatever web browsers they offer up in stable.

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#90 2017-11-18 13:27:08

titan
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

I have been a very long time user of Iceweasel/Firefox but fed up by the increasing cpu and memory usage stated looking around. Have tried most browsers including some of the minimal ones like Surf and ubzl. I just didn't like Chromium, I wanted to but it didn't work for me. More recently I tried Opera, once I got it configured as I wanted, I hate speed dial, it was actually OK. However I was getting a problem with some embedded media and found a solution on the Vivaldi forum ( which didn't work with Opera) so thought I would give Vivaldi a try and now 6 weeks later can't see me using any other browser any time soon. I run Sid and yesterday upgraded Firefox to 57 Quantum, I can't see much difference just using it for a while and it seems dated compared with Vivaldi.

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#91 2017-11-18 15:30:47

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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

I downloaded FF v57 yesterday and have tried it a litlle. It is slick and definitely quicker than v52.5 ESR. Switching between the two of them messes up plug-ins though. Later versions are installed when running v57 and they are not compatible with v52.5. Others are disabled by v57 and I can not enable them again when back in v52.5. Noscript is not available for v57 so I tried uMatrix instead. It may be good but right now it is confusing me more than it helps me :-)

I have not checked memory footprint or CPU-load yet.

/Martin


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#92 2017-11-18 19:19:47

BLizgreat!
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

You need to use profile manager to set up a new profile for each instance of Firefox you have, ie: Atm have v52-esr, 56.0.2 and 57. So setup a new profile, while Firefox isn't running, in terminal "firefox -p &exit" in run dialogue just "firefox -p". It'll pop open and create a new profile with whatever name there. It's really straight-forward and self explanatory in use. Then you can tell whichever version of Firefox, which profile you want it to use. Ie: Here's my rc.xml keybind in it. For FF v56.0.2.

<keybind key="C-Right">
      <action name="Execute">
        <startupnotify>
          <enabled>true</enabled>
          <name>Web Browser</name>
        </startupnotify>
        <command>/firefox -p "firefox"</command>
      </action>
    </keybind>

C-Right, is Control + Right/arrow key, in <command>, /firefox is the symlink to firefox I have stashed in a hidden .directory named .browser in my /home/username and the part I'm talking about -p "firefox" tells it to use the profile I made in profile manager named firefox. So that when I launch it, that's the profile it uses all the time.

Easy to keep them seperate, like you've discovered extensions from older versions are no longer compatible. You can move bookmarks, passwords etc over manually or using the built in Firefox Sync feature Mozilla has. Though it's good practice to use a seperate profile for each. Can also come in handy for special usecase profiles, like one setup specifically for use in web-dev or say your wife/girlfriend wants her own, so your bookmarks etc don't get mixed up with her's. So could quickly set it up so all the gooey stuff(GUI), taskbar launcher, desktop icons etc launch her's, while have an easy keybind to launch yours.

Here's the one to launch v57 in rc.xml by way of example ...

<keybind key="C-Up">
      <action name="Execute">
        <startupnotify>
          <enabled>true</enabled>
          <name>Web Browser</name>
        </startupnotify>
        <command>firefox -p "default"</command>
      </action>
    </keybind>

So you see, it's using the default profile, I don't plan on using v52-esr anyway but I could've created a new one for v57 (really should have) and told it to use that one instead. Also yes, expect the newer Firefox to be much more processor intensive, the whole multi-process thing and yeah, I'm waiting for noscript to come out that supports it, that alone will make a major difference in curbing that added cpu-overhead. Based on what I've seen anyway. Until then I've got it installed, a dedicated profile setup for it to use and keybind to launch it but will keep using v56.0.2 until some things smooth out.

Also for me, it's not much faster than the minorly tweaked v56 I've been using. Just barely, nothing major and mentioned still plenty of tweaks I could apply to boost the older version I use to speed it up further, though those same tweaks should also equally apply to the newer Firefox too. Just to be anal, given a seperate profile it's easy on gnu/Linux to run several versions side-by-side, even at the same time. So can have both v56 and 57 running fine same time. Or if someone wanted to take it to extreme could have 12 different versions of Firefox running same time, side-by, ranging from v4, v10, v 32 to latest. big_smile

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-18 19:56:32)

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#93 2017-11-18 19:52:35

BLizgreat!
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

Never done 12, have done 4-5 different versions side-by-side. It's interesting to see FF v.3.0.2 next to v42 or whichever. Seeing how different they are/were and how far the browser has come. smile

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#94 2017-11-18 20:11:49

BLizgreat!
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

More babble about Firefox, though sheesh it's a browser thread why not ? Been using Firefox for going on 16+yrs, so do have a bit to say about the subject.

I <heart> about:config and over the years have come to go through them and apply varied tweaks, some are no longer valid though and new one's tend to be steadily added. Though worth playing with depending upon what your end-goals are, in steps the profile manager again, easy enough to setup a testing profile and play around with experimental about:config tweaks there, hone a users about:config tweakage skills in it, instead of your everyday one (profile). Takes 2mins or less to delete it and create a new one as you please.

Note: Like just about every subject matter, no make that definitely is beyond any doubt. There are no shortage of BAD about:config or tweak Firefox guides on the interwebz.

Also trick I've found for using firefox that's running from a directory but isn't actually installed with Thunar file manager, it has that handy "run custom command" thingy, also the set this as default for x-type of file. So I could tell thunar when I click on a file type, say .html I want it to open in that non-installed Firefox by default. Use the custom command in my case example, "/firefox -p "firefox". Then when I click on .html or .htm etc files, thunar automatically opens them in the instance of Firefox I want, using the profile I want for it too.

Think it logical that using noscript actually introduces some quirks itself in page rendering. Though to me well worth it for the system resources it converses and/or any craptasticness those site creators may be trying to play with via javascript. Quantum has changes in it's javascript handling which are supposed to be improved too. Again though, end of day, I'm going to hold off for awhile but will play around with Quantum to keep an eye on how it's coming along. High probability at some point will happily switch to it. Only once I've gotten familiar enough with it to tweak it and it's to the point where I think it's truly ready for everyday use.

Edit: Which I believe for vast majority on any platform window$/gnu-Linux it's totally ready NOW. They're used to seeing any browser they use gobbling down gigs of RAM and pounding their hardware's processor(s) anyway. Didn't accept that before now, won't accept it now and ironically, would bet $ my Firefox is faster than whichever browsers they use everyday. Latest Firefox is supposed to already use less than others as is. So it's a step up for many if that's so. Haven't done any testing myself, so can't say. Though do say, it's going to be nothing different and likely better to some degree than what most are used to anyway.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-18 20:26:33)

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#95 2017-11-18 20:50:56

BLizgreat!
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

Oops, also you're definitely welcome Martix, like to share info with other nixers, think it's one of the cool things about gnu/Linux and somewhat even an obligation on my part, pay it forward, so others get some joy out of all this amazing open source others gave us to use and enjoy. Hopefully some of this babble gives you/others some handy info to improve their experience with Firefox. Personally still think it's the best browser going and would hate to see it fade away.

Also to me, it's kind of crappy on Debian's part not to make it (latest Firefox)readily available, at least via backports for stable users and the iceweasel thing was outright crappy on so many levels, am not even going to waste time typing about it, it's been done away with at present thankfully. Debian stable has a wide user base, to not support latest Firefox is crappy, it's the world famous example of an open source browser and as such should be represented and supported in every way reasonably possible by open source projects, esp Debian.

Hoas, again... hope ya kidding, am not going to bother putting up a vid of me running 23 different versions of Firefox side-by-side, you and many others here know me(@ least should). Wouldn't waste my time typing nonsense, wouldn't do likewise with invalid info. Only time I'm posting screenie or didn't happen is when I believe such a screenshot is important to properly convey the info I'm talking about. big_smile

Anyone who felt I'm bs'ing or faking whatever, hey great. Feel free to ignore me and don't bother using any of the tips/tricks or info presented. smile

Imo and experience not having latest FF on Debian stable is kinda foolish. With so many easy ways to have it, why wouldn't someone. Plus believe any Debian stable based distro ie: BL, Lmde etc etc endless would realise it's in their and their userbases interests to keep latest Firefox readily available but that's up to each distro maintainer. Am sharing info for the benefit of others, took me less than 1hr while on Statler to figure out how to get latest FF running on it and pretty much equally applies to every gnu/Nix distro on the planet. Also old versions do not receive as much continuing over-sight either Hoas, as such very realistic to say some bugs or serious security issues may've been overlooked in them and could continue being overlooked, thus still valid and present in x-version being used. No version 52 isn't ancient either way, shrugs.

Many others posted and hadn't read through it, just jumped to posting about profile manager, so could be back.

Yep more babblation !!!

@Steve any of the methods mentioned in that a-d list I posted will work fine, actually prefer running it having gotten it directly from Mozilla's website, from a directory in /home/username, in my case I use a dot directory, so it's hidden. ie: .browser because I don't want a directory named browser in plain sight in the /home directory, Firefox doesn't care if it's in a .directory, still runs the same and you just have to use the correct path to it in a symlink to run it via keybind or icon, menu.xml etc.

One benefit of doing it this way, is it updates just like it does on window$, if you have it set up automatically update, when an update comes out from Mozilla, when you launch FF it will check and automatically update to latest. So no lag or wait, while xyz-distro maintainer or repo maintainer adds it. You get it directly from Mozilla as they come out.

DANG IT EDIT: You don't have to use a symlink either, could use the full path to it, in my case in rc.xml that'd be.

/home/username/.browser/firefox/firefox -p "firefox"

That'd be the full path + the -p "firefox" telling it which profile I want used. Would/should work in menu.xml, launchers, desktop icons whatever else. I setup a symlink really just cause I wanted to. Could also use a bash-etc alias for similar, it's easier to type firefox, than all of that above.

@Steve 2 ... As long as you do as stated in the post about it, aka: Take 20mins to learn about apt-pinning or #comment out the repo, installing Firefox from Sid/unstable will cause ZERO problems. It's just the way Debian does it (screens software) between branches. They view latest Firefox as unstable software at this point. Because it's only gone through part of xyz-screening process they have in place. Don't get me wrong think the people behind Debian are brilliant but to consider something as innate as latest Firefox unstable is dorkish, shrugs. It's widely in use on any number of Debian based distro's out-of-box and again it's just a dang web-browser, not the friggin kernel etc. big_smile

@Steve 3, Yep done it FOREVER (many different ways on many different branches of Debian stable-testing-unstable, mixed, hybridized this, that ... all points in-between), works great, no reason to stick to using an outdated version of Firefox and missing out on any/all improvements they may bring UNLESS you want to. Mentioned someone can easily have firefox-esr and latest installed and run them simultaneously even. It's up to you and x-nixer though. I'm not using FF v52 unless I want to or have a valid reason.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-18 23:52:50)

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#96 2017-11-18 21:35:32

BLizgreat!
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

I <heart> Firefox and Debian.

Firefox needs all the help it can get right now, Chrome (google Inc) is kicking the crap out of them in the browser wars. Again ... for Debian and the combined userbase of millions it's bound to represent not to throw it's weight behind at least giving Mozilla it's support if the users want it and aren't willing to employ one of the many easy ways to get latest Firefox themselves, yep I view as crappy on Debian's part.

You can download a .deb for Chrome, when you install it, it even adds it's own repository to sources.list.d and will automatically update itself from there.

When you install Opera, which requires adding it's repo to sources.list or sources.list.d but while installing it'll ask, do you want Opera to automatically update from now on ?

Whereas Firefox (the gold standard of open source web browser), unless you're using method a. from my post above, takes a bit more pita to keep it upgraded, not much more in the case of ie. method b, c or d but a bit. Mentioned I generally go with option a. and have it set so FF doesn't automatically update itself, though I can manually check in a couple secs and apply whichever latest updates. I don't want it automatically updating itself without my permission. In this case I didn't want it updating me to v57 automagically, I want to keep that instance of Firefox @ v.56.0.2 for now and my own reasons. Though still have v57 fully installed from the Lmde2(Betsy) repository too.

After-thought

Personally think Mozilla could take a lesson from Chrome/Opera in this and package a .deb that does similar to Chrome for Debian(based)users to install with. That's up to them though.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-19 03:17:28)

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#97 2017-11-18 21:52:24

BLizgreat!
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

@Hoas ...

Yes, very risky, I would never recommend that.

What I am saying is that I think BLizgreat! (and others like him) would find a Debian sid system more suited to their needs than a stable-based distribution like BunsenLabs.

Like plus respect you but in this it's clear to me you really don't have the knowledge/experience on the topic. Am using Debian stable for my own reasons. While think BL is kickbutt, would never use it given my choice because I like what I can roll myself better, nobody can create a gnu/Linux distro that fits your/my needs and preferences better than I can. My install(s) are lighter, faster, have newer software that I elected, my choice of all default apps/utils etc etc, kernel (atm including one I compiled for this laptop.) ETC ETC.

Ran Sid for a LONG time and for something called unstable it was shockingly stable, even with user neglect or laziness, sometimes did things I knew were inadvised without any problems resulting. Main reason I quit using Sid, is updatitus, I don't any long longer want to deal with a flood of updates coming down. Plus mentioned am on a neighbors wifi, so it's inconsiderate to overly abuse their bandwidth allotment at this time, other times I was on expensive and bandwidth limited mobile hotspots, same thing if you only have 10gbs for $50 bucks a month. Debian stable is a nifty choice, plus yeah it's well, errrrr stable. Which meets my needs/preferences atm.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-18 22:16:28)

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#98 2017-11-18 22:15:56

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

BLizgreat! wrote:

Main reason I quit using Sid, is updatitus, I don't any long longer want to deal with a flood of updates coming down. Plus mentioned am on a neighbors wifi, so it's inconsiderate to overly abuse their bandwidth allotment at this time, other times I was on expensive and bandwidth limited mobile hotspots, same thing if you only have 10gbs for $50 bucks a month. Debian stable is a nifty choice, plus yeah it's well, errrrr stable. Which meets my needs/preferences atm.

Then why complain about "outdated" [sic] browsers in Debian stable? Surely FF-esr serves your needs better than the constantly-updated mainline version?

So I stand corrected, the best choice for you would then seem to be Debian stable plus selected (Debian) backports, FrankenDebians are good for nothing and offer the worst of all worlds, IMO.


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#99 2017-11-18 22:20:05

BLizgreat!
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Posts: 1,217

Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

Complain ? I'm not complaining, I have latest Firefox, have had latest Firefox forever (on all things gnu/Linux), am sharing this info for the benefit of others. I learned all this years ago. Oops and no running outdated versions of a web browser I like doesn't meet my needs, esp when there's so many easy ways to have latest versions and not like FF updates come out daily, though when they do, yes ... better to apply them, ie: Like bug fixes or security patches. Such as v56 vs .01 and .02. They didn't put out those updates for no reason.

So I stand corrected, the best choice for you would then seem to be Debian stable plus selected (Debian) backports, FrankenDebians are good for nothing and offer the worst of all worlds, IMO.

In that, the most important word is IMO, imo ... as again, in this it's clear to me you don't have the knowledge/experience to have a valid opinion. Still entitled to one sure but in this I know better, do have the knowledge, do have years of hands-on experience to backup what I'm typing, shrugs. It's all good no matter.

PS, Oops ... well am complaining about firefox-esr as regards Debian's stance on it and typed why I view it that way. For a distro like Debian not to do more(very easy for them) things to support the premere open source browser to me, yeah, it's hypocritical and crappy. Could also point out some other stuff about this matter, as to why it's a bad idea to have Chrome dominating to the extent it is but not going into all that and the why of it, is obvious to anyone with common sense anyway.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-18 22:34:23)

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#100 2017-11-18 22:38:02

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,217

Re: Your views/experiences with web browsers fellow nixers ? :)

Funny, so why not ... again I don't just type for practice or type outta my buttocks, the first time I used the internet, THERE WAS NO FRIGGIN INTERNET YET. big_smile It was so boring it was painful, said hmmmm, ok, that's sorta interesting and promptly lost interest in it until something more like the internet as we all now know/have it came along. Then said, HEY this is AWESOME, all the free adult entertainment anyone could ever want at the push of a button !?!?!! I'M THERE DUDE ! tongue

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2017-11-18 22:38:55)

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