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#1 2019-11-17 05:13:53

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 6,060
Website

Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

Debian developers will be considering three alternative proposals for policy going forward wrt init scripts and systemd:

Choice 1: Affirm Init Diversity

Choice 2: systemd but we Support Exploring Alternatives

Choice 3: Focus on systemd for Init System and Other Facilities

https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002

If I find a mailing list where the discussion is taking place I'll post a link.

Clearly it's not (yet) a cut-and-dried systemd take it or leave it. Interesting to see what the result is.


John
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( a boring Japan blog, idle Twitterings and GitStuff )
In case you forget, the rules.

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#2 2019-11-17 14:28:27

Sector11
The Tpyo Knig Mod
From: 77345 ¡#
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 5,665

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

OHHHH Nice I like it ...


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#3 2019-11-17 15:28:11

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,217

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

Still cool to see discussion going on but honestly imo, it's more a going through the motions kind of thing, even if they publicly say option 1 or 2, bottom line is it'll end up being #3. Same time I only have my thoughts on the who's/why's and how's n what's related to the way things work on that level of open source and there's levels above those too. Mostly ending with (IBM)Redhat and other massive tech corps.

Holding a mock trial doesn't mean any real effort at justice is being done.

The accused, how do you plead ? *Everybody present already knows he's getting found guilty and is soon to be executed. Two hours later, guilty + death, gawds have mercy on ya you poor bastid. Though hey, he/they had a trial, wasn't totally railroaded or nothing. Lmao ! tongue

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-11-17 15:30:15)

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#4 2019-11-17 15:41:23

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,217

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

There's many things I'd like to be more optimistic about, be more positive about in my perceptions of but this whole reality and realism thing keeps getting in the damn way !

Lmao(again) now there's one for the BL quotes thingy. tongue

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-11-17 15:41:45)

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#5 2019-11-17 19:10:07

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 4,159
Website

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

What do you call a herd of monkeys fighting in a dilapidated theatre?
Oh no, not again...

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#6 2019-11-18 02:26:34

DeepDayze
Member
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 761

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

Why can't Debian support the good choice of init systems out there such as good old SysV plus Runit/OpenRC besides Systemd and rework certain packages affected to not hard depend on Systemd as of course at least one init system needs to be present. Picking your favorite init system should also be in the installer.

Systemd should not be the end all be all as it isn't really suited for servers for example IMO.


Real Men Use Linux

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#7 2019-11-18 03:17:29

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 6,060
Website

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

DeepDayze wrote:

Why can't Debian support the good choice of init systems out there such as good old SysV plus Runit/OpenRC besides Systemd

That's exactly what they're discussing now.

Right now it's still possible to boot with sysvinit, but of course if an individual package - not related to bootup - chooses to depend on systemd there's nothing to be done about it. You can't expect the Debian developers to rewrite all such packages, or demand that contributors do so.

Adding a choice of init system to the Debian installer would be a topic for an "enhancement" bug. The DI developers might consider it.


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog, idle Twitterings and GitStuff )
In case you forget, the rules.

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#8 2019-11-18 21:50:02

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,217

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

Diverting far from uphill/stream developments is a very serious thing, has a wide ranging impact, if it's even possible. Would mean Debian would have to take over maintenance much less forward development of huge and vital system components. They'd have to invest the same time, effort, have the skills and resources to match the people uphill/stream of them. (IBM)Redhat and all others. Plus all else associated, cause many other projects uphill/stream are going to follow along with what Redhat-etc does, thus systemd or Wayland or whatever else are going to be a required dependency which those projects and the developers-people involved are going to be designing for. Including kernel.org ( the people who develop and handle the kernel.)

Imo systemd is a much better option than SysV was (a big step forward), for many technical reasons. As Wayland will be too, it can and will do much which either Xorg can't or it would take a bunch of dirty hackery to enable it to do, as pulseaudio is/was too. Mentioned to a great extent the big boys, mega-tech Corps like Redhat aren't coddling to jane/joe avg users. They are saying this is getting done, this is how it's going to be, like it or lump it users. They pay for, have the people with the skills to handle and develop it, know a chit-ton more about all assoc things than the endusers. So this is really is as it should be in my view. The dumbest person on Redhats payroll has likely forgotten more about gnu/Linux and tech, than what's considered a very proficient gnu/Linux enduser will ever know about what's involved, how it works, why this is a good idea and getting rid of this old piece of software or way it was done, also best. Etc etc.

So forget a vote or poll, unless the folks involved are qualified, which yep no doubt many a person closely associated with the Debian gnu/Linux project are. However many the end users are clueless and it'd be a waste of time to even listen to them. If you don't know what you're talking about, probably best to keep your face hole closed ... to shut up. big_smile

You could put up a vote thread. ie: Do you think we(That being some party way uphill/stream)should use this init or that one ? People would vote for SysV and not even have the slightest idea what it even is/does, how it works, how it compares, etc and so forth. This might come as a shocker but everyone has an opinion though having any clue about the topic of discussion is not at all a requirement. The old "opinions are like aholes, everybodies got one." < I add this to it, yep and like ahole's " and many people's stink." smile

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-11-18 21:56:08)

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#9 2019-11-18 22:19:29

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,217

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

Which just 4 record, lump myself into that category of not knowing enough to have much of a valid opinion on these issues. Despite much effort and reading about init's/PID-1, SysV, SySv + Openrc, runit and Systemd. If someone who was qualified asked me, hey BLizgreat! what do you think we should do dude, what's the best way to go with xyz ? My answer would be a resounding, I don't friggin know man. Though as with common sense such is a rare quality among humans, knowing what you don't know and even further admitting it. Someone asks me summin, I don't know, yep, gonna tell em, I don't know, read some bks and ask google if it's really important to you.

One of the things I've noticed about stupid people the world over, they think they know everything. Thus no need to actually learn anything, thusly they tend to be clueless and totally fulla-chit. I've got higher standards for myself and am not accepting that personally. Try to have more respect for myself and/or others. smile

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-11-18 22:20:31)

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#10 2019-11-18 22:20:01

twoion
ほやほや
Registered: 2015-08-10
Posts: 2,553

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

DeepDayze wrote:

Why can't Debian support the good choice of init systems out there such as good old SysV plus Runit/OpenRC besides Systemd and rework certain packages affected to not hard depend on Systemd as of course at least one init system needs to be present. Picking your favorite init system should also be in the installer.

Systemd should not be the end all be all as it isn't really suited for servers for example IMO.

As raised in the various recent LWN articles on this issue, the problem is -- quality and developer time.

In order to support an init system, every package that provides a service has to ship a systemd .service as well as an init script. It doesn't matter if there are 99 well-packaged inits, each inidividual package has to support them.

systemd .service files are quickly written and declarative, and since Debian's default init is systemd, devs likely have a box around to test their packaging.

Now, sysvinit scripts are largely not declarative (except for the LSB headers if applicable), containing logic and thereby programming errors ranging from unimportant/mistake to grave oversight. The LWN articles cite posts that argue that these scripts/programs are not written correctly, have never been written correctly, and packagers are not testing them thoroughly because who would want and can support systemd, 5 flavours of sysvinit and upstart?

Just last year I had to patch the sysv init script (in use at a job) of a fairly core service daemon in Debian because /etc/init.d/service status did capture but not return the correct exit status so the script could be relied upon. That's the other side of the problem - Debian is shipping crappy packages. TBH that kind of breached some serious trust in Debian as an enterprise-ready server OS.

So I only see 4 ways to go about this:

a. Do nothing, continue as before.

b. Concentrate on 1 init system to get the core aspect of the (server) OS, launching services reliably, right.

c. Drop a lot of the 20,000+ packages in the repo in an attempt to improve quality overall, free resources to maintain more inits.

d. Massively recruit new devs.

(c) Is long overdue but Debian is not a dictatorship, so maintainers will keep their packages if they insist.

(d) isn't going to happen.

(a) is not good.

(b) Keeps all the packages while reducing the burden on package maintainers. Let's face it, you can't adopt 100 daemon packages and make them all great if the software is complex. So every hour counts.

At least to uncover most bugs, an automated testing pipeline for services/init scripts could help but somebody has to set it up that CI.

Just my (economic) perspective. It's a question of affordability for Debian.

Curious if the project can change its direction at this point.


At the end of the river the sundown beams

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#11 2019-11-18 22:28:28

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,217

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

Dang it one more public service advisement from Babble Inc follows: smile

Could actually snatch all the archived junk from EOL Debian releases, prior to when Systemd was even around. All such software could/would work great for practically the indefinite future and all would be Systemd/Wayland+Xwayland etc etc free. Debian gnu/Linux as it stands now could be used as is for the next 15-20yrs. Though people will miss out on future developments, improvements etc etc.

Seriously doubt the people at kernel.org are likely to ever make Systemd-etc a hard depend anyway. They also have too many other things they're supporting to do so. Such as mobile, smart-cars, industrial equipment etc etc endless list goes here ... Just cause xyz-release goes EOL=end of life, doesn't mean all the software for it stops working or quits being kickarse.

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#12 2019-11-18 22:49:59

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,217

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

Was too busy babbling to read. Cool and insightful post imo Twoion. For me ... am adopting a wait and see, uphill/stream gets to the point I consider it having gone haywire, I'll do as described above, that's my sky is falling backup plan. Plus there's also these snaps/flatpak thingies. Portable apps have only been around for 20yrs or more. At least I was using similar 20yrs ago on window$. An app that's got all required packaged with it. I don't so much like them, like the trusted repo's thing but do admit to them having potential uses and of course as with everything they come with inherent pros/cons.

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#13 2019-11-19 01:04:04

cog
brushpopper
From: New Mexico, USA
Registered: 2015-10-27
Posts: 322
Website

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

@twoion +1


It is another beautiful day at the Red Pony Saloon and continual soiree.  - Henry Standing Bear

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#14 2019-11-19 01:43:46

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,217

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

One more ... bet nobody saw this coming. big_smile

IBM did not fork over 34BILLION bucks to buy Redhat, at a time when it was reporting just slightly over 1bil-yr in earnings folks. So that they can focus on 3 anonymous gnu/Linux users downstream somewhere who like leapfad or think SysV should stay. Clearly they have ambitions and much more relevant and important things in mind. Big boy things, tech ninja and mover and shaker type things ... Aka: They really don't give the slightest fark about you, what init you prefer, which file manager x-user thinks is nifty etc etc.

Much stuff is going to get left behind while they look to the present and future of the gnu/Linux platform and open source overall. It's unheard of for a company to be bought for 34yrs worth of it's anticipated earnings. Obviously they see some real profit potential and yeppers they are going to do what's necessary to protect their interests. I think much of this proposed change is actually going to be beneficial and better, based on a lot of junk. Though the illusion of shiny happy people, let's hold a giant meeting and find out what's going to make everybody truly happy, including nixers who know almost nothing about the platform or tech in general. That farce has really long been gone anyway and it's just now much more straight forward. They are calling the shots, making the decisions and those who don't like things can do whatever is within their power to find ways to set things up as they prefer. Redhat is certainly a major player in gnu/nix but far from the only mega-corp with a vested interest either.

Mentioned it's not at all unusual for someone who's used window$ for 20+ years to be mostly clueless as to really understanding it or being able to cope with it or config it from a technical perspective. They know how to put the pointer thingy on the icon thingy and launch their browser thingy but not much more. Same is obviously true of many the avg desktop nixer too. So yeppers, Debian can hold all the hearings + meetings + polling it wishes. Think the bottomline and at the end of day, it's going to turn out to be much ado about nothing and uphill-stream will win out. Much pointless ranting, shaking of fists at the heavens, decrying of the changing and huffing about unix philosophies by some dude(s) who have been using Ubuntu for 8 months. Who quite possibly don't have the slightest clue what Unix even is or means. They've just heard someone else saying this or that violates an important Unix thingy and thus we (whoever WE are)must not do that(whatever that may be)under any circumstances. tongue


Sorry fellow nixers I'm going to blame it on the coffee. Yeah that's it, the coffee. It made me guzzle all that caffeine dammit !!!

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-11-19 01:55:21)

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#15 2019-11-19 01:51:34

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,217

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

Nope last one in this dang.

Yep all those mega-tech Corps who've invested obscene amounts of money into this stuff are probably going to sit around saying, hey let's leave this thing the way it is, has been since 1998. If we were to change it some person out there somewhere, using this software for free probably won't like it. Can't do that eh, LMAO. Yeppers gals/guys, tonight we're gonna party like it's 1994 !!!! YAY !!! tongue

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-11-19 01:51:56)

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#16 2019-11-19 06:38:34

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 4,159
Website

Re: Debian about to vote on init/systemd policy

cog wrote:

@twoion +1

+2.
And it seems most people who are in there doing the work see it similarly - or they go ahead and actually fork it.
BTW, the new operating system for old Nokia Maemo devices is based on Devuan. Makes a lot of sense to me. Hooray for doing it right!

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