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#1 2019-05-30 10:02:58

twoion
ほやほや
Registered: 2015-08-10
Posts: 2,543

Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

Context: <https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic … 736#p86736>.

Google-Chrome is a given. Should Chromium lose adblock capabilities too, we shouldn't offer this garbage browser as an install option, because on today's internet, a browser without blocking capabilities is like violent assault since there's so much tracking and ad banners involved.

If we should decide to go forward with this, we could also drop x-www-browser-pipemenu altogether and just offer the most recent firefox in Debian as the standard browser.

Wondering how the community at large things about this.


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#2 2019-05-30 13:19:12

Sector11
The Tpyo Knig Mod
From: 77345 ¡#
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 5,656

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

I have never, I repeat "NEVER" used Chrome or Chromium ...

Palemoon ... maybe not as feature rich, but the "freature" are killing us ... or FireFox

We had the Palemoon developer here for a while where did he go?  BL IMHO should offer that as an alternative.

The net is even begining to disallow text based browsers like lynx.

It's a loosing war, the big companies that control the $$ want $$$$$$ and whey will not selttle for $$$$.

twoion wrote:

If we should decide to go forward with this, we could also drop x-www-browser-pipemenu altogether and just offer the most recent firefox in Debian as the standard browser.

I totally agree with this....

But then I don't like the pipemenu.  If the application is a simple apt-get-install away it should not be a as you state in that sentence above: "just offer the most recent FF in Debian.


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#3 2019-05-30 16:12:06

DeepDayze
Member
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 760

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

Agreed a lot of sites are going more graphical and even blacklisting text only browsers...sad state of affairs. I also saw that article where Chrome will soon cripple any kind of adblocking and Chromium might need to be forked more to keep the adblocking features in the codebase. Even Edge on Win10 has little to offer in blocking ads.

I would go with FF and/or Palemoon as well.


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#4 2019-05-30 16:18:51

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 4,135
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Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

twoion wrote:

Context: <https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic … 736#p86736>.

Google-Chrome is a given. Should Chromium lose adblock capabilities too, we shouldn't offer this garbage browser as an install option, because on today's internet, a browser without blocking capabilities is like violent assault since there's so much tracking and ad banners involved.

If we should decide to go forward with this, we could also drop x-www-browser-pipemenu altogether and just offer the most recent firefox in Debian as the standard browser.

Wondering how the community at large things about this.

I think now is the time to simply stick with firefox.
No, I'm not a fanboy or idealistic about it. They're - currently - the least bad full-blown browser out there.
I also added a little context.

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#5 2019-05-30 20:18:08

Naik
Member
From: Lipsia
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 182

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

ohnonot wrote:

I think now is the time to simply stick with firefox.

I totally second that and given this the pipemenu could be considered useless, or used to introduce the less known browsers like palemoon, midori etc..

I just like this install options, for their convenience. They give me the message "We chose this, but of course you may try somthing else like ... your welcome!"

naik --greetz


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#6 2019-05-31 01:40:22

DeepDayze
Member
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 760

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

Opera is OK but being closed source is a dealbreaker.


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#7 2019-05-31 03:54:50

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 8,665
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Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

Agreed about Opera, though the new version is getting stellar reviews.

I'm a Firefox man, it's a good company. +1 drop the Google browsers.

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#8 2019-05-31 07:03:31

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 6,023
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Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

twoion wrote:

Should Chromium lose adblock capabilities too, we shouldn't offer this garbage browser as an install option, because on today's internet, a browser without blocking capabilities is like violent assault since there's so much tracking and ad banners involved.

Fair enough. Having an app on the BL install pipemenu constitutes a recommendation from us. At least Chromium is open source and gets Debian security updates, but if it's not recommendable, then we should drop it. I never use it myself, except a couple of times a year when I hit some weird issue with a website, and want to check if it's an issue with Firefox.

People who want Chromium can still install it the regular way, via apt or synaptic, and if we add an auto-updating menu like jgmenu (looking very likely) then the value of the pipemenu entry is diminished anyway.

If we should decide to go forward with this, we could also drop x-www-browser-pipemenu altogether and just offer the most recent firefox in Debian as the standard browser.

Obviously, there's no meaning to a pipemenu with only one entry! However, I'd tend to prefer firefox-esr to any more recent version (again, personal opinion). Every Firefox upgrade seems to piss me off, and I keep the oldest version that still gets security upgrades.

---
BTW
What do the community think of the other app pipemenus (graphics, multimedia, office)? We could just drop them all and rely on jgmenu to find newly installed apps...
...but not if some of our users appreciate them.


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
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#9 2019-05-31 08:10:18

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 4,135
Website

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

twoion wrote:

Should Chromium lose adblock capabilities too, we shouldn't offer this garbage browser as an install option

Let's keep in mind that there's a conditional here.

So we wait and see; somebody posted that "Chromium will still contain this change, in fact its where it will appear first." - but there's nothing to substantiate that claim, and frankly I do not have the energy to hunt down real information about Google projects. let's hope twoion already has that info.
Or maybe the simple fact that all chrom*-based browsers are tied into google's addon store is the info I'm looking for here?

Anyhow, to expand on my previous comments:
I think solely Firefox should be offered preinstalled (and doen't the ESR version already uses the faster engine?) -
BUT - it needs to come with some protection already built in.
Some sort of preconfigured user.js to cap the worst phoning-home stuff, make it faster ootb.
and personally I'd say everybody should just get uMatrix preinstalled (it's simple enough to use) (unfortunately it's not in debian stretch repos - ublock-origin is. Hopefully that, too, will change in buster).

Replace the pipemenu with information about why we choose Firefox, the Good, the Bad, and what you can do to make it even safer.

Last edited by ohnonot (2019-05-31 08:14:08)

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#10 2019-05-31 09:46:52

PackRat
jgmenu user Numero Uno
Registered: 2015-10-02
Posts: 1,110

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

DeepDayze wrote:

Opera is OK but being closed source is a dealbreaker.

Is Vivaldi in the Debian repos? I know you can download it in a deb package.

Last edited by PackRat (2019-05-31 13:50:35)


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#11 2019-05-31 10:54:42

damo
....moderator....
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 5,205

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

Here is some feedback from a non-BL user who has seen my setup:

He was super-impressed by the principle of the Install screens, especially being offered the LAMP stack, without having to do any heavy-lifting himself;

He liked the Browser pipemenu offerings, and points out that Chrome users (the majority?) coming to BL would like to see that as an easy option, without having to apt-get it and mess with Debian alternatives.

---------------------

Steve Pusser has Palemoon in his repos, so we could also include that as an install option ( - I have gone back to palemoon again after past breakages regarding media playback). It needs a bit of fiddling to use uBlock though.

IMO: keep a browser pipemenu, and not seem too elitist for new users.


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#12 2019-05-31 15:38:23

clusterF
Member
Registered: 2019-05-07
Posts: 259

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

Why not just keep the pipemenu for the big name browsers to post installation and keep them off the iso to bring it down in size?

Last edited by clusterF (2019-05-31 15:39:20)


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#13 2019-06-01 03:15:16

orionH
Member
Registered: 2017-11-15
Posts: 21

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

johnraff wrote:

What do the community think of the other app pipemenus (graphics, multimedia, office)? We could just drop them all and rely on jgmenu to find newly installed apps...

Yes, good idea, that would make the Openbox menu very clean and nice. Yes to Firefox only too.

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#14 2019-06-01 04:02:56

Dobbie03
Resident Metalhead
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 2,381
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Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

Can I say one word? Just one?

Qutebrowser.


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#15 2019-06-01 04:05:37

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 8,665
Website

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

Lots of constructive thinking being posted, it's certainly a lot to consider. A browser is among the most basic tools, and the most vulnerable to cloud-side abuse. @ohnonot has a very valid point about offering some protection (we should set Duck Duck Go as the default browser, too).

@ohnonot, we don't have the manpower to do this in time for lithium. If you or anyone else wants to start a git repo for this, that would be the best way to have it merged in time, unless someone on the Team suddenly decides to tackle it.

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#16 2019-06-01 04:47:54

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 4,135
Website

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

ohnonot wrote:

I think solely Firefox should be offered preinstalled (and doen't the ESR version already uses the faster engine?) -
BUT - it needs to come with some protection already built in.
Some sort of preconfigured user.js to cap the worst phoning-home stuff, make it faster ootb.
and personally I'd say everybody should just get uMatrix preinstalled (it's simple enough to use) (unfortunately it's not in debian stretch repos - ublock-origin is. Hopefully that, too, will change in buster).

I checked, umatrix is in buster. hooray!

hhh wrote:

we don't have the manpower to do this in time for lithium. If you or anyone else wants to start a git repo for this, that would be the best way to have it merged in time, unless someone on the Team suddenly decides to tackle it.

fair enough.
i did recently have a discussion with johnraff about Librefox. On my archlinux system, the AUR package integrates into an existing firefox installation. It does NOT fiddle with stuff in your $HOME! Looking at the PKGBUILD (no really, please do, it's a very simple shell script, easy to understand, shouldn't behard to port to dpkg/apt), it installs stuff in /usr/lib/firefox.
I had it running for a while with no problems, but then forgot about it again in some recent browser choice confusion... anyhow, I'm re-installing it again. I think I already like this more than some ghacks user.js. Just look at the Readme.

in any case, this remains:

Replace the pipemenu with information about why we choose Firefox, the Good, the Bad, and what you can do to make it even safer.

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#17 2019-06-01 06:11:59

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 6,023
Website

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

ohnonot wrote:
hhh wrote:

we don't have the manpower to do this in time for lithium. If you or anyone else...

...Librefox...
Looking at the PKGBUILD (no really, please do, it's a very simple shell script, easy to understand, shouldn't be hard to port to dpkg/apt)...

Really appreciate the input, but @hhh's point still stands. I have had a look at the Arch script, and it might not be too hard to do, but we have a long TODO list and a tweaked Firefox will have to wait its turn. If you feel like tackling it now, please go ahead. Your contribution will be (as always) much appreciated.

---
About Firefox forks - in general I'm not too enthusiastic, at least for shipping as default in BL. They might have various improvements, but are bound to lag behind the real thing in terms of security updates.

---
About keeping Chromium in the pipemenu (we dropped Google Chrome a while back), I'm still not sure...


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
In case you forget, the rules.

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#18 2019-06-01 16:00:33

DeepDayze
Member
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 760

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

PackRat wrote:
DeepDayze wrote:

Opera is OK but being closed source is a dealbreaker.

Is Vivaldi in the Debian repos? I know you can download it in a deb package.

Ah forgot about vivaldi. That could be another good choice too.


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#19 2019-06-02 01:50:18

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 8,665
Website

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

johnraff wrote:

About keeping Chromium in the pipemenu (we dropped Google Chrome a while back), I'm still not sure...

We're defining ourselves with this release as a distro that's about choice. Chromium, trash as it may be, is in the Debian repos. We've offered it before, we should probably offer it one last time (unless something break-through happens after Buster's release) for Lithium. Add a note about security to the Release Notes.

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#20 2019-06-02 05:28:14

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 4,135
Website

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

^ let's wait and see (or go and find out) what the final word on the adblocker-blocking is with regard to chromium specifically.

ohnonot wrote:
twoion wrote:

Should Chromium lose adblock capabilities too, we shouldn't offer this garbage browser as an install option

Let's keep in mind that there's still a conditional here.

I still agree with this 100%, incl. the conditional.

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#21 2019-06-03 15:48:58

Colonel Panic
Member
Registered: 2018-11-13
Posts: 125

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

PackRat wrote:
DeepDayze wrote:

Opera is OK but being closed source is a dealbreaker.

Is Vivaldi in the Debian repos? I know you can download it in a deb package.

Vivaldi would be my choice too instead of Chromium. It uses fewer system resources than Chromium and accepts add-ons from the Chromium Store; I haven't yet found a Chromium add-on that won't work with it (though admittedly I don't use many).

I don't know whether it's in the standard Debian repos or not but once it's installed it updates along with the rest of the system.

Last edited by Colonel Panic (2019-06-03 15:49:40)

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#22 2019-06-03 16:46:45

Sector11
The Tpyo Knig Mod
From: 77345 ¡#
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 5,656

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

Not in Debian 9 repos:

 03 Jun 19 @ 13:44:04 ~
   $ ser vivaldi
alias ser = aptitude search
                                        
 03 Jun 19 @ 13:44:16 ~
   $

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#23 2019-06-03 16:58:25

PackRat
jgmenu user Numero Uno
Registered: 2015-10-02
Posts: 1,110

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

Sector11 wrote:

Not in Debian 9 repos:

 03 Jun 19 @ 13:44:04 ~
   $ ser vivaldi
alias ser = aptitude search
                                        
 03 Jun 19 @ 13:44:16 ~
   $

Thanks; it's released as a 32 and 64-bit deb package (or rpm) so I guess it would have to be back-ported.


You must unlearn what you have learned.
    -- yoda

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#24 2019-06-04 00:32:07

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 8,665
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Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

https://www.addictivetips.com/ubuntu-li … -on-linux/

I'm a bit surprised @stevep hasn't backported for MX Linux.

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#25 2019-06-04 02:07:35

DeepDayze
Member
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 760

Re: Drop Chrome + Chromium from x-www-browser-pipemenu

hhh wrote:

https://www.addictivetips.com/ubuntu-li … -on-linux/

I'm a bit surprised @stevep hasn't backported for MX Linux.

That might be something to do when he's bored smile

I think it should be simple to port to Debian and the Arch PKGBUILD may be useful for making the Debian build script from.

Last edited by DeepDayze (2019-06-04 02:10:49)


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