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#1 2019-02-23 22:55:13

BLizgreat!
Resident Babbler - vll!
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,000

What's people's take on Wayland?

Looks like it's really picking up steam and wondering about people's experiences in Debian and views on it. Compatibility with applications using older toolkits. With this XWayland deal supposed to maintain backwards support.

Still wonder about stability, performance and overhead. Seen it said Xfce hasn't really done anything to switching to it, other than moving towards gtk3. So how about it fellas, where do you stand on Wayland?

Since it's slated for being default in Buster, assuming that'll mean Bunsen-team will be going with it as well. Not in a position right now to check it out very well.

Vll! smile

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-02-23 22:59:30)

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#2 2019-02-23 23:02:11

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Honestly? Since Xorg isn't broken, and has gotten all the hassles it used to entail smoothed out, I think Wayland is nothing but an exercise in fixing the working till it's broken again.  Just pure perversity to introduce new hassles, rather like a certain startup and service supervision suite I won't mention...


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If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#3 2019-02-23 23:30:30

Sector11
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From: 77345 ¡#
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Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

Honestly? Since Xorg isn't broken, and has gotten all the hassles it used to entail smoothed out, I think Wayland is nothing but an exercise in fixing the working till it's broken again.  Just pure perversity to introduce new hassles, rather like a certain startup and service supervision suite I won't mention...

+10245²

Back in the 70's a friend, and his name was not Potter or Ring or something like that, told me:

If it ain't broke don't fix it. {sigh}

I am very comfortable with Xorg ...


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#4 2019-02-23 23:42:11

DeepDayze
Member
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 648

Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Sector11 wrote:
Bearded_Blunder wrote:

Honestly? Since Xorg isn't broken, and has gotten all the hassles it used to entail smoothed out, I think Wayland is nothing but an exercise in fixing the working till it's broken again.  Just pure perversity to introduce new hassles, rather like a certain startup and service supervision suite I won't mention...

+10245²

Back in the 70's a friend, and his name was not Potter or Ring or something like that, told me:

If it ain't broke don't fix it. {sigh}

I am very comfortable with Xorg ...

And I am more comfortable with the tried and true and battle proven Sysvinit.

A certain Lennart decided to break what's been working very well prior and Wayland still is in rough shape so Xorg is here to stay for a long time. I do give the Xorg team kudos for jumping right on any vulnerabilities that are found (and CVE's issued for), as well as cleaning up the codebase by dropping support for some little used or very old protocols.

Last edited by DeepDayze (2019-02-23 23:43:07)


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#5 2019-02-24 00:44:43

BLizgreat!
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Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Was mostly hoping for feedback of people who have actually tried it to some extent and factual findings from experience on the things that matter to us as gnu/nix users. Stability, performance, issues encountered etc. Yeah gnu/Linux really is getting hit with some big changes.

Don't doubt vast majority of us, as end users really have no concept of the why's, how's and who's involved but those who do understand and are in a position to develop such changes do seem to agree things need to be addressed. I mean from all I've seen it is a widely accepted concensus that X needs to be replaced. Not like Wayland is an overnight thing, been being developed for 10yrs. Same was true for the init.

As users it's perfectly understandable to view things as it works well for me, let's not change it but there's a much bigger picture I know I don't have the knowledge, skills or experience to even see.

Technology and how it's used has changed so much, think there's a lot more to it than hey I like it, so it's not broken, don't mess with or change anything. People who know better obviously think things do need to be changed and I have to defer to them. Just hoping it's for the better.

Have people used Wayland to any extent? Some (distros) have had it default for a long time apparently and now with Debian moving to make it default, taking it as a hopeful sign, though will wait and see.

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#6 2019-02-24 01:12:00

BLizgreat!
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Registered: 2015-10-03
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Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Also doubtless said it before but think a big part would have to be money and desktop nixers are now mostly a fringe niche and distant consideration to the people paying for the actual development. Makes perfect sense those interested parties would be focused on super computing, large scale commercial servers/data centers, commercial uses, cloud computing or any other gnu/nix areas that put the butter on their bread. 

The people signing some large checks, many a paycheck for people actually doing the development are of course going to have more influence than a person who uses what's produced to setup a home media server, in their hallway closet. Goes without saying.

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#7 2019-02-24 01:26:50

DeepDayze
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From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 648

Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Wayland is promising but still needs a LOT of work not to mention applications needing reworking to be able to "talk" to Wayland to display on the screen.

Case in point: Firefox. Only recently there's been some experimental bits added to FF to run nicely with Wayland.

Last edited by DeepDayze (2019-02-24 01:27:45)


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#8 2019-02-24 02:34:27

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

BLizgreat! wrote:

Was mostly hoping for feedback of people who have actually tried it to some extent and factual findings

Does "Tried setting up Gentoo with it, it wouldn't start a graphical session, ended up unmerging and using Xorg instead, after some wasted hours" constitute the type of feeback that qualifies?

I've *installed* it, I've never actually seen it running 'cause it wouldn't. #Unimpressed


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#9 2019-02-24 02:56:22

BLizgreat!
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Posts: 1,000

Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

^Absolutely does. smile

DeepDayze, surely Xorg is going to remain for quite some time, who's to say Wayland will ever be the successor. Debian's apparently defaulting to Wayland for gnome3, something I could care less about, while Xorg remains on the throne for others(de/wm). Currently stuck with only a smartphone, so researching anything properly seems out of reach and even trying painful.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-02-24 02:58:34)

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#10 2019-02-24 03:14:05

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
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#11 2019-02-24 03:22:55

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

It's amusing watching sets of devs reinvent the wheel like this, when they set out, it's *always* going to be smaller, faster, more efficient & more secure.  It starts off looking like it might or will be, 5 years on from adoption in reasonable numbers, after adding workarounds for issues, security patches, bug fixes, that annual "gotta have it" new feature.. it finally works smoothly.. and it's bigger, slower, more complex and more bloated than what it replaced.

Last edited by Bearded_Blunder (2019-02-24 03:25:30)


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#12 2019-02-24 15:53:48

BLizgreat!
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Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,000

Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Thanks for the links John. smile

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#13 2019-02-24 17:34:37

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,673
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Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

It's amusing watching sets of devs reinvent the wheel like this, when they set out, it's *always* going to be smaller, faster, more efficient & more secure.  It starts off looking like it might or will be, 5 years on from adoption in reasonable numbers, after adding workarounds for issues, security patches, bug fixes, that annual "gotta have it" new feature.. it finally works smoothly.. and it's bigger, slower, more complex and more bloated than what it replaced.

the same might be said about bunsenlabs.
big_smile
*ducks and runs*

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#14 2019-02-24 21:13:10

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Inevitably, even if Bunsen stuck rigidly to the software #! had, isn't it a corollary of Parkinson's Law? Something like "Software expands to consume the available resources."


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#15 2019-02-25 23:42:03

ratcheer
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From: USA
Registered: 2015-10-05
Posts: 209

Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

I've been using Wayland on Fedora for the past couple of years, but most applications were still running in Xorg compatibility. But with Fedora 29, I have figured out how to make everything run in Wayland if at all possible. Everything is working well.

I just do it because I can.

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#16 2019-02-26 00:24:29

glittersloth
...always giving it to you straight
Registered: 2015-09-30
Posts: 745

Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Dunno. I don't swing that way.

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#17 2019-03-04 02:50:32

BLizgreat!
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Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 1,000

Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Nothing wrong with that ratcheer, glad people are.

Haven't commented on this, cause not in a position to have anything much meaningful to say. Not from a technical perspective, much less bigger picture. Obviously pretty much another top down change by the gnu/Linux bigwigs with the influence over upstream projects to do that.

On the one hand agree, people who actually do the work, have the technical skills and understanding, drawing a hard line and saying this needs to be addressed, it's not a democracy, so unless xyz end-users want to fork etc, this is how things are.

Would fully agree, if could be confident those major players had best interests at heart. Think it's highly unlikely they do. People don't tend to invest large sums of cash and effort with selfless intent. More like for their advantage/interests and expectations of return on investment.

In the case of Wayland, after supposedly 10yrs of effort and still where it is, I have to find that disturbing. Too much to this and the bigger picture for me to grasp. Pretty much left hoping for the best and wait and see. Simply not qualified to grok it. Not keeping me from trying though.

With the acquisition of Red hat, someone doesn't invest that kind of capital without very real expectations and would have to have some very solid guarantees in the bargain.

Last edited by BLizgreat! (2019-03-04 02:53:39)

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#18 2019-03-04 02:55:21

Bearded_Blunder
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Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

*Shrug* I've seen wayland now testing stuff in gnome, user's perspective "graphics get drawn on the screen", they look just exactly like the ones xorg draws there, gnome was a resource pig, related or not I couldn't say...


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#19 2019-03-04 04:20:36

hhh
That's it!
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 7,465
Website

Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

gnome was a resource pig, related or not I couldn't say...

This. I'm looking at Plasma, whatever KDE does I'll adopt unless it's absolutely stupid, and that hasn't been their M.O. recently.

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#20 2019-03-04 18:57:41

mynis
Member
Registered: 2018-01-29
Posts: 11

Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

I think it's going to be one of those things where Wayland makes a lot of sense on paper, but you just have more issues with it in practice because of the lower adoption rates. And then you end up in this chicken before the egg scenario where no one uses it because it's more complicated, and it stays more complicated to use because no one uses it. The traditional model might be archaic and make less sense on paper, but until if/when Red Hat and some of the major decision makers have a reason to make it the default in their distros, there's just no need for it. The hardware is strong and cheap enough to where performance isn't a huge issue, and the alleged security benefits haven't really manifested themselves. I imagine if there were to be some kind of ominous zero day exploit that utilized X and there was no other way to fix it, then we might see everyone scrambling to modernize.

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#21 2019-03-06 18:26:54

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,673
Website

Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

^ i respectfully disagree.
i have only third-hand information to lean on, but that said it makes a lot of sense to say that Xorg needs to be replaced sooner or later. Even I know that it's kludges built on kludges.
And AFAIU wayland is not about security primarily; it's about making the right tool for the job. Also many wayland developers are actually Xorg developers. There's more arguments in that article, I'll leave it to the distinguished reader to make up their own minds after (hopefully) reading it (all 4 pages).
From my viewpoint, there's no doubt at all that wayland is coming, but there's no hurry. And to all you greenhorns, to me no hurry means... many, many years... close to a decade. And as always in GNU/Linux - it just adds to the choice, it's not "Wayland vs. Xorg".

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

gnome was a resource pig, related or not I couldn't say...

please don't disrespect.
big_smile

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#22 2019-03-07 02:54:39

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 5,231
Website

Re: What's people's take on Wayland?

ohnonot wrote:

From my viewpoint, there's no doubt at all that wayland is coming, but there's no hurry.

That's how it seems to me too. A lot of skillful people are working on this stuff, and by the time the shift becomes essential the options available will likely be more attractive than they are now.


John
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