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#1 2018-10-26 13:05:06

S7.L
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Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 105

Bunsenlabs and Debian

Ive been reading this thread and others over here the last few days.

http://www.debianuserforums.org/viewtop … f=7&t=3708

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo … bug=861536

Just wanted to ask what the bunsenlabs team think of this? Granted it is about an init system runit and its bugs but some of the messages talk about how bunsenlabs could be misleading and some such?.

On 05/23/2017 07:14 PM, Matthew Hoare wrote:
> On 23/05/2017, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> I'm not sure why you are reporting this
>> bug to Debian in the first place.
>>
>
> I am one of the BunsenLabs developers, the distribution is a theming
> and configuration set applied to a Debian base.
>
> The system from which the report was sent was installed as a Debian
> stretch system using `debootstrap` with a post-installation
> configuration script [1] applied afterwards.

If it's just a theme, why does it change the distribution name? This
sounds a bit misleading to me. A different distribution name should
also mean that it's not Debian but a derivative which can have different
package versions and thus different bugs.

Last edited by S7.L (2018-10-26 13:05:42)


"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate."...Voilà!

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#2 2018-10-26 14:54:05

johnraff
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

I don't know why some of the people on that thread seem so bitter. This isn't typical of the other Debian mailing lists I've visited, or the regular Debian forum for that matter. Debian is a universal operating system, and has no need to be defensive.

Last edited by johnraff (2018-10-26 14:56:46)


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#3 2018-10-26 15:33:24

S7.L
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Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 105

Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

^ I interpret what they are saying is that bunsenlabs is nothing more than a theme or an abstraction layer over debian proper. What are the goals of bunsenlabs, maybe oneday be similar to ubuntu ?


"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate."...Voilà!

~ V

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#4 2018-10-26 19:46:02

Dobbie03
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

Wow!  I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes but that Debian forum is just a horrible place to be.  Glad I never signed up.


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#5 2018-10-26 19:57:29

twoion
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Registered: 2015-08-10
Posts: 2,238

Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

S7.L wrote:

^ I interpret what they are saying is that bunsenlabs is nothing more than a theme or an abstraction layer over debian proper. What are the goals of bunsenlabs, maybe oneday be similar to ubuntu ?

We had this discussion way back in 2015 or 2016 IIRC. But this is my interpretation:

We once aimed at becoming a Debian (pure) blend https://wiki.debian.org/DebianPureBlend … stallation, that is, develop an Openbox desktop blend which then would be merged into Debian, and BL would disappear at that point.

Though Debian is a behemoth with endless discussions, processes, and a hierarchy and I think all of us (the BL team) do not feel at this point like beginning and seeing the multi-year process of creating a Debian (pure) blend through to its conclusion (mostly the politics and process part) not because we aren't interested but because we just don't have the (time and commitment) resources. There is a reason Debian is not Ubuntu.

We had changes in the team, changes in available time to spend on BL, and so it came that the state of BL still is very much what it was in the beginning, a 'flavour' of Debian.

We very much understand our flavoured distro as Debian + config. Insofar, there also was a discussion to change the distro ID to BL or not at one point. Well, in the end we decided to register as a Debian derivative and brought our affairs in order: https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census/BunsenLabs.

Just remove the bunsen-os-release package to switch the distro ID back to Debian. This will make all Debian tools to reporting they are running a pure Debian again (which also is true!).

Technically speaking, Debian + Config = Debian but also Debian + Config = BunsenLabs hold true, so BunsenLabs = Debian. This is not strictly speaking though because we may ship different versions of some packages or additional packages which are not config packages, but software.


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#6 2018-10-27 03:47:12

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
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Posts: 4,681
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

Dobbie03 wrote:

Wow!  I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes but that Debian forum is just a horrible place to be.  Glad I never signed up.

Let's be careful though, that nasty debianuserforums.org is not the official Debian user forum: http://forums.debian.net

Twoion explained the status of BL perfectly I thought. Only to add that Debian is not at all dismissive of derivatives, but welcomes them:

Debian wrote:

Debian welcomes and encourages organisations that want to develop new distributions based on Debian. In the spirit of Debian's social contract, we hope derivatives will contribute their work to Debian and upstream projects, so that everyone can benefit from their improvements.

And our status is publicly declared:

BunsenLabs wrote:

The distribution consists of configuration and resource packages installed on top of Debian. There are no changes to the way the Debian base system is administrated.


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#7 2018-10-27 04:59:28

Dobbie03
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

johnraff wrote:

Let's be careful though, that nasty debianuserforums.org is not the official Debian user forum: http://forums.debian.net

I was gonna say.  I thought the forum looked a little quiet to be the Official Forum.


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#8 2018-10-27 06:21:10

ohnonot
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

thanks twoion for a little history.

so someone wrote that calling bunsenlabs a distro is "misleading". i think it's just bitching, because HoaS (yes) proved to them that the system in question is, in fact, real debian, but they just didn't want to be proved wrong.

there's a LOT of that bitching going on on forums.debian.net - i guess it's understandable, because otherwise there would be a much larger influx of non-debian questions; esp. the sort where OP doesn't even make it clear that they're using a derivate.

but as always, the internet is full of annoying know-it-alls that can never admit that maybe the other side's argument is also valid.

i like the idea that bunsenlabs is pure debian with configuration, but i think you moved away from that idea recently, no?

in any case, what's a distro and what's not - there's no clear definition other than the fact that soemone's "distributing" it.

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#9 2018-10-27 07:08:53

Dobbie03
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

ohnonot wrote:

thanks twoion for a little history.

so someone wrote that calling bunsenlabs a distro is "misleading". i think it's just bitching, because HoaS (yes) proved to them that the system in question is, in fact, real debian, but they just didn't want to be proved wrong.

there's a LOT of that bitching going on on forums.debian.net - i guess it's understandable, because otherwise there would be a much larger influx of non-debian questions; esp. the sort where OP doesn't even make it clear that they're using a derivate.

but as always, the internet is full of annoying know-it-alls that can never admit that maybe the other side's argument is also valid.

i like the idea that bunsenlabs is pure debian with configuration, but i think you moved away from that idea recently, no?

in any case, what's a distro and what's not - there's no clear definition other than the fact that soemone's "distributing" it.

All of this.

~~

That Debian forum was especially toxic and arrogant, a very unwelcoming place unless you are a part of that main clique (from what I have seen from my lurking). 

I'm glad my forum and here is the total opposite. It's a benchmark I don't want to be at.


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#10 2018-10-27 10:53:06

S7.L
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Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 105

Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

Thanksfor clearing that up twoion.

I hope this thread didnt come over as being divisive it was not my intention i was just curious as to why those statements were made over there and on that bug thread.

I for one think Bunsenlabs is a great distro and it fills a niche for those who want a debian system that offers more than x so to speak and i have learnt alot from how it works. Not everyone is able to figure out the debian installer when they come into linux as a beginner so it is good that distros such as Bunsenlabs are available.

Cheers


"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate."...Voilà!

~ V

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#11 2018-10-27 14:36:49

ohnonot
...again
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Posts: 3,201
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

Dobbie03 wrote:

That Debian forum was especially toxic and arrogant, a very unwelcoming place unless you are a part of that main clique (from what I have seen from my lurking). 

I'm glad my forum and here is the total opposite. It's a benchmark I don't want to be at.

i was thinking about this, and i feel the need to clarify quite a bit now.
if you want to understand what is currently happening at DUF, you reallly need to start with this thread.
it was later split into this one because of the large amount of "claptrap" it contained.
now that latter one is much longer, largely because it has been trolled systematically by Head_on_a_Stick. no really, read the first few pages, i hope you'll see what i mean.
btw, i'm namibed there.
of course by now it is hopelessly poisened and everybody should really just shut up.

so after you read all 30 (!) pages, you will understand why the athmosphere in this thread:

is so bad from the beginning.

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#12 2018-10-27 14:37:40

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,201
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

S7.L wrote:

Not everyone is able to figure out the debian installer when they come into linux as a beginner so it is good that distros such as Bunsenlabs are available.

doesn't bunsenlabs use the debian installer?

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#13 2018-10-27 14:55:02

S7.L
Member
Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 105

Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

ohnonot wrote:
S7.L wrote:

Not everyone is able to figure out the debian installer when they come into linux as a beginner so it is good that distros such as Bunsenlabs are available.

doesn't bunsenlabs use the debian installer?

If a beginner manages to figure out the download and cp to usb/cd then i believe the distro is recommended to be run live first to check net connection and operation.

Bunsenlabs installs Bunsenlabs via the installer, its tailor made for Bunsenlabs.


"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate."...Voilà!

~ V

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#14 2018-10-27 19:23:57

Dobbie03
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From: New Zealand
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,974
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

ohnonot wrote:
Dobbie03 wrote:

That Debian forum was especially toxic and arrogant, a very unwelcoming place unless you are a part of that main clique (from what I have seen from my lurking). 

I'm glad my forum and here is the total opposite. It's a benchmark I don't want to be at.

i was thinking about this, and i feel the need to clarify quite a bit now.
if you want to understand what is currently happening at DUF, you reallly need to start with this thread.
it was later split into this one because of the large amount of "claptrap" it contained.
now that latter one is much longer, largely because it has been trolled systematically by Head_on_a_Stick. no really, read the first few pages, i hope you'll see what i mean.
btw, i'm namibed there.
of course by now it is hopelessly poisened and everybody should really just shut up.

so after you read all 30 (!) pages, you will understand why the athmosphere in this thread:

is so bad from the beginning.


Thanks for clearing that up.  I could see HoaS was trolling and I went to close the tab that this was on many times but the conversation kept pulling me back in.  I can't believe they continued on the conversation.

Anyway I see what was happening...


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#15 2018-10-27 20:35:57

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

twoion wrote:

Though Debian is a behemoth with endless discussions, processes, and a hierarchy and I think all of us (the BL team) do not feel at this point like beginning and seeing the multi-year process of creating a Debian (pure) blend through to its conclusion (mostly the politics and process part) not because we aren't interested but because we just don't have the (time and commitment) resources. There is a reason Debian is not Ubuntu.

I was completely frustrated the first time I tried to report a Debian bug, nearly a decade ago, and I've never tried again since.

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#16 2018-10-27 21:00:29

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

To be clear, not because the intention wasn't there, but because the effort was too involved for something that would get sorted out by Debian eventually, anyways.

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#17 2018-10-27 21:07:04

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
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Re: Bunsenlabs and Debian

BTW, Matthew a.k.a Head_on_a_Stick is no longer a part of the BL Dev Team. He resigned several months ago.

https://www.bunsenlabs.org/faq.html

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