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#1 2018-09-01 17:45:55

DustyB
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 61

Linux Smartphones

Thinking of ore-ordering the https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/

Have done my homework but need your thoughts on the matter

Last edited by DustyB (2018-09-01 17:48:22)

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#2 2018-09-01 18:36:18

mufrious
Member
Registered: 2015-10-02
Posts: 10

Re: Linux Smartphones

There is also Fairphone. It comes with Android, but you can install Fairphone Open on it. (Haven't done it so far, but intenting to...)

The advantage is that they try to be as fair as possible, from the extraction of the raw materials, to the recycling of the used or defect parts, that you can send back. The phone is modular, and if one module needs replacement (battery, screen, camera, microphone...), you may ask for another one, and ship back the defect module. When they have designed an enhanced version of a module, they propose to exchange the older one, and recycle them. It happened with the cameras when they updated them to a greater resolution.

Very satisfied so far.

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#3 2018-09-01 18:44:14

twoion
ほやほや
Registered: 2015-08-10
Posts: 2,230

Re: Linux Smartphones

DustyB wrote:

Thinking of ore-ordering the https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/

Have done my homework but need your thoughts on the matter

Order when it's ready, do not pre-order. They're already funded; you don't have to risk your cash to get them going. Unless you have money to spare, then sure, why not. I wonder whether/how well the phone will work in the end (voice calls, data line etc need to be rock-solid after all for this to be a viable device). From software to well-designed hardware it's a long road. Do they even have a working proof-of-concept device?


Im grünen Wald, dort wo die Drossel singt…

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#4 2018-09-01 20:05:06

Dobbie03
Resident Metalhead
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,966
Website

Re: Linux Smartphones

Once they start releasing the pre-sold Purism phones, then I may purchase one.


I like my Metal like my coffee.......Black!

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#5 2018-09-02 04:49:12

DustyB
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 61

Re: Linux Smartphones

twoion wrote:

Order when it's ready, do not pre-order. They're already funded; you don't have to risk your cash to get them going.

I believe that is very correct .. honestly had never thought about it this way .. but I will wait .. the projected launch is supposed to happen sometime in the month of January 2019, not very far away

mufrious wrote:

There is also Fairphone. It comes with Android, but you can install Fairphone Open on it. (Haven't done it so far, but intenting to...)

Thank you .. will have a look at this one as well ..

I guess .. the fate of the phone as @twoion rightly said will depend on hardware and software success put together .. also we are yet to see what the software will actually look like .. way it's coded and it's deployment .. This actually got me thinking .. the fate might not be too far off from the Ubuntu Phone .. it would have been a success if not for the app store crashing and burning .. I agree this is a completely different concept all-together but if I remember correctly Ubuntu phone discussions were full of people complaining that the "apps" were just modified web browsers .. loading mobile versions of their desktop sites

The Blackberry DTECK is touted to be secure but again it's Android and therefore plagued by Google's Policies not really secure when all it's trying to do is add a modified anti-virus/spyware program

Are there any others out there apart from the Fairphone and Librum 5?

Last edited by DustyB (2018-09-02 04:50:22)

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#6 2018-09-02 06:04:58

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,197
Website

Re: Linux Smartphones

i also considered a fairphone, but decided against it. here are the reasons (i'm not dissing, i have respect for the project, but the last point ultimately broke it for me):

  • the current model is already pretty old and still being sold for the same price as 2016

  • they changed their statement from "fair" to "as fair as possible", because even they had to realize that it's impossible. "transparent" would be better.

  • a friend of mine had unbearable software difficulties with it, and the warranty replacement as well.

  • the modularity is exaggerated. it esp. won't be possible to exchange the main board once the fairphone 3 is out (like it happened for fairphone 1 => fairphone 2; they are not compatible)

which leaves me with this:

DustyB wrote:

Thinking of ore-ordering the https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/

i've been dithering for a long while, but ultimately decided to wait much for the reasons twoion listed.
or as someone else said "never be the first or the last to adapt new technology".

here are my questions + their answers about the librem 5.
all in all, development seems good & solid, i'm pretty sure that basic telephony, the OS and internet will work.
yes, development boards exist, maybe even a proof-of-concept phone build.
they have a blog with regular and detailed updates.

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#7 2018-09-02 16:16:11

titan
Member
Registered: 2015-10-02
Posts: 59

Re: Linux Smartphones

It will be great when a decent Linux phone OS is ready for use but don't hold your breath a few good attempts have failed. Historically  I think there were issues with  proprietary code needed for some of the telephony drivers and FOSS principals but of course they may have been resolved, some time since I last looked

If you just want an open source OS running open source apps then AOSP and Fdroid will do much of that. Yes overseen by Google but all the code is open when used without GAPPS

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#8 2018-09-03 02:47:55

DustyB
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 61

Re: Linux Smartphones

titan wrote:

It will be great when a decent Linux phone OS is ready for use but don't hold your breath a few good attempts have failed. Historically  I think there were issues with  proprietary code needed for some of the telephony drivers and FOSS principals but of course they may have been resolved, some time since I last looked

If you just want an open source OS running open source apps then AOSP and Fdroid will do much of that. Yes overseen by Google but all the code is open when used without GAPPS

True .. Not opensource but worth a mention CopperheadOS very limited given the hardware it is compatible with and from Canada so I am not cringing at the fact that the source code is not accessible ...

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#9 2018-09-03 09:08:21

Jimbo_G
Member
From: France
Registered: 2017-05-12
Posts: 76

Re: Linux Smartphones

After Ubuntu killed off the mobile OS, development has continued by a community of users called UBPorts. A new version of Ubuntu Touch has just been released, based on Ubuntu 16.04:

https://ubports.com/blog/ubports-blog-1 … elease-166

It works on a few devices: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/

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#10 2018-09-03 11:46:12

DustyB
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 61

Re: Linux Smartphones

Jimbo_G wrote:

After Ubuntu killed off the mobile OS, development has continued by a community of users called UBPorts.

All said and done .. I do not doubt the OS however with the small glimpse I had of their Application Store .. I believe that they are still plagued with the same App issues that caused the fall of the Canonical Ubuntu Mobile originally .. Not too many developers actually "developing" actual apps .. take "WhatsApp" for example (quite a popular messaging app in the Eastern part of the world, now owned by Facebook) the only "App" available is a modified browser that opens a Web version of the Service ..

However if I am being Honest a bit more digging is required at my end

Last edited by DustyB (2018-09-03 11:46:26)

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#11 2018-09-03 12:12:34

Jimbo_G
Member
From: France
Registered: 2017-05-12
Posts: 76

Re: Linux Smartphones

Yep, I use Telegram instead of WhatsApp for this reason. My own requirements for a smartphone mean that I have very little use for apps so Ubuntu Touch is fine for me, but I can understand why a lot of people wouldn't want to use it.

If progressive web apps continue to be developed and overtake native apps (as I expect will happen), then the whole app store issue will disappear.

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#12 2018-09-04 01:22:11

glittersloth
...always giving it to you straight
Registered: 2015-09-30
Posts: 655

Re: Linux Smartphones

DustyB wrote:

Not opensource but worth a mention CopperheadOS

Uhm, their website states it's open source. Is there anything I'm missing?

DustyB wrote:

... and from Canada so I am not cringing...

Why does Canada get a free pass? It's also a member of the International League of Voyeurs.

Last edited by glittersloth (2018-09-04 08:34:36)

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#13 2018-09-04 02:16:30

damo
....moderator....
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 4,382

Re: Linux Smartphones

I've got a pre-order in for the Pyra. I know it's a bit chunky as a phone, but hell, a mobile device with Debian pre-installed big_smile

Probably not ready in time for Xmas though sad


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#14 2018-09-04 02:27:45

DeepDayze
Member
From: In Linux Land
Registered: 2017-05-28
Posts: 541

Re: Linux Smartphones

damo wrote:

I've got a pre-order in for the Pyra. I know it's a bit chunky as a phone, but hell, a mobile device with Debian pre-installed big_smile

Probably not ready in time for Xmas though sad

That thing looks like a tiny laptop and the garish color really wild! I want something like that myself smile


Real Men Use Linux

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#15 2018-09-04 03:36:58

DustyB
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 61

Re: Linux Smartphones

damo wrote:

I've got a pre-order in for the Pyra.

Cluky .. I suspect only because of the fact that they have limited production numbers and they want to gauge market potential of this type of a device .. not exactly "only" a smartphone .. it seems to be way more .. also on the plus side don't think this one is going to manufactured in China .. will turn out to be quite a hacker's device

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#16 2018-09-04 04:20:38

damo
....moderator....
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 4,382

Re: Linux Smartphones

Not much bigger than a RPi, and other colours will be available! It has just passed its safety certification I understand.

Phone, mini-computer, touchscreen, gaming controls, multi-ports: as you say, quite the geek's ultimate swiss army device!


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#17 2018-09-04 05:12:43

DustyB
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 61

Re: Linux Smartphones

glittersloth wrote:

Uhm, their website states it's open source. Is there anything I'm missing?

No .. You are correct .. I wasn't paying attention .. my bad

glittersloth wrote:

Why does Canada get a free pass? It's also a member of the Internal League of Voyeurs.

Yes but at least not China .. Chinese smartphones have had concerns regarding them actually uploading user data to Chinese Servers recording screens etc.

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#18 2018-09-04 05:20:56

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,197
Website

Re: Linux Smartphones

^ damo, have they upgraded the CPU? i looked at it more than a full year ago, and already then it seemed pretty outdated - a low-specced dual core iirc, something i would not purchase for my current laptop/desktop...
and graphics?

are they working on telephony software?
there wasn't much when i looked, but hardware support is there and "it isn't too hard to build a yad wrapper around some command line stuff" was what i took away from the discussion.
they could even pool efforts with librem 5 developers.

anyhow, they are sure taking their sweet time...

_______________________________________________


DustyB, if you're concerned about WhatsApp (a blight that afflicts the whole globe, not just "East") you should probably forget about FOSS phones completely.

________________________________________________


I feel that the Librem 5 is going to be much, much better than any previous effort at a FOSS phone.
A lot to explain, but basically they have previous experience with this, and they have done their homework before starting.
The numbers speak for themselves - their funding goal was $1,500,000 and it has been over-reached for many months now, currently at $2,655,722.10.

You really should all mosey over to their blog and do some reading:
https://puri.sm/posts/

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#19 2018-09-04 05:30:22

DustyB
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 61

Re: Linux Smartphones

ohnonot... not actually concerned about whatsapp ... just using that as an example considering the masses at the end of the day the general user decides if a company will sink or swim, recent example - the Essential phone ... it is at the end of day a matter of economics ... you could probably put out a device with all the bells and whistles but will there ever be a successor to the said device or will it be just another one off like the Essential or the Ubuntu based phones ...

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#20 2018-09-04 05:56:55

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,197
Website

Re: Linux Smartphones

i don't really understand what you mean by that last part, but i suspect you should do some research about librem 5 development and form a more informed opinion.
i'm not fanboying them, but from an objective viewpoint, this is quite different from all previous attempts at a FOSS phone.

DustyB wrote:

not actually concerned about whatsapp ... just using that as an example considering the masses

it's not a good example.
people who are concerned about whatsapp don't go funding foss phones.
in other words, those that show serious interest already know that the great advantage of having true gnu/linux on your phone also carries some disadvantages.
and it's not going to be a big market; probably never. it's a small market, but people make a living on small markets, too.
there's no whatsapp on any gnu/linux anyhow.
thinking about it, you probably didn't even grasp the fact that the librem 5 (and the pyra) will be running a real, debian-based gnu/linux, and how that differs from things like ubuntu touch or android. read the thread with my librem 5 questions (i linked previously).

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#21 2018-09-05 12:17:30

DustyB
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 61

Re: Linux Smartphones

ohnonot wrote:

there's no whatsapp on any gnu/linux anyhow.

Your statement is incorrect .. "Whatsapp" runs on "Android" and it is a Linux Kernel based OS and is Opensource .. True that Linux maintainers have disowned it and do not really appreciate the code going into the kernel and so on .. that does not change the fact that it falls under the FOSS umbrella.

ohnonot wrote:

it's not a good example.
people who are concerned about whatsapp don't go funding foss phones.
in other words, those that show serious interest already know that the great advantage of having true gnu/linux on your phone also carries some disadvantages.
and it's not going to be a big market; probably never. it's a small market, but people make a living on small markets, too.

It is an example taking into account the basic principles of economics .. the foundatiopn to which is "supply and demand" .. Ubuntu already has proved my point by crashing and burning with the original Crowdfunded phone that they were supposed to bring to the "FOSS" community .. two things killed it before it even hit production 1. Cost and 2. Concept -- this was soon followd by a little known company called BQ introducing their Ubuntu based phones (which were nowhere close to the original projections of what the Ubuntu based phone should even look like or spec. wise) .. then the FOSS community and a few enthusiasts even bought it .. and if you take the time to read their community forums you will know that a vast majority of the owners were extremely unhappy - Very specifically with their app store (Even the most widely used consumer operating system "Windblows" crashed and burned in this area because of 1. interface and 2. their application store so much so that they brought down the most popular phone company on the planet at that time "Nokia" because the "Nokia CEO actually (former Microsoft employee) actually decided that he will only have "Windblows Mobile" as an operating system on all Nokia phones followed by a fatal and delayed realization of their mistake, the Nokia corporation tried desperately to capture the market they lost by introducing low spec low end phones running a Microsoft version of Android which looked exactly like Windblows Mobile - if you decide to do a little research you will notice that even their "Surface tablet" concept and generation 1 iterations actually failed miserably due to their 1. OS 2. App-store .. people would have lived with the OS flaws but people do not actually live without their software and Ease of Use <<<<*** If you go fur4ther and look at the generation 2 Microsoft Surface Ads you will notice that they were wise enough to actually le3arn and in time .. Now they are running as complete os and have real software running it {{Which is exactly what you are speaking of below but we will come to that in a moment}}

Now the Economics behind it all -

1. What percentage of world actually Uses Linux (People like You and ME)? - Very Small - in the single digit percentiles
2. Of the people that actually use Linux, how many people actually care about the FOSS ideology? - Smaller Still
3. Of those that care about FOSS how many actually have the money to afford a $500 phone? Smaller Still (smaller than the answer to #2 question above)
4. Can these set of people keep the Librem 5 alive if it follows in the footsteps of the Ubuntu Phone {{and consider this; The Ubuntu Phone was backed by a much larger Immensely better funded company and Canonical still decided not to put their own money down and Crowdfunded their phone .. because it was at concept stage}}? Short answer NO because this is what will happen:

1. Every company is in it for money and putting food on their employees tables no company exists for just the love of it, lets take FOSS for example the biggest Linux companies actually survive and Linux herself (i know i am referring to a piece of code) has survived because of Money .. the revenue comes from small and large corporations alike companies like IBM who put it on their super computers .. the military (the US military recently dumped Windblows for Linux for their drone programs because Windblows got hacked) so FYI .. Multinational Corporations, Governments fund FOSS i.e. Money - the revenue Linux earns from people like us doesn't even count - Linus T. would he still be developing Linux if his Idea had not taken off and adopted .. true his initial years were full of struggle .. do you know what he is worth today? Do you realize that he has enough to fund the education of 3 girls and support his family and provide for their future, and More .. things like that don't happen and have not happened for him just on Ideology .. It's money that makes it happen .. and FYI .. even Microsoft funds FOSS .. They recently started offering Linux and BSD based servers and Acquired some stake in a Large Linux company .. even if not direct revenue .. some of the money from Microsoft does find it's way to Linux through product awareness or indirect channels or even people realizing that there is something better out there than Windblows

2. Do you know that after Nokia employees founded HMD Global and Brought back the Nokia brand from the dead it is largely focused on mid level phones and looking at 3 world markets primarily India because they know something > Money keeps their company afloat and allows them to bring in better products to the developed world example the Nokia 9

ohnonot wrote:

thinking about it, you probably didn't even grasp the fact that the librem 5 (and the pyra) will be running a real, debian-based gnu/linux, and how that differs from things like ubuntu touch or android. read the thread with my librem 5 questions (i linked previously).

Where exactly is the animosity coming from? And I understand it perfectly .. my question is simple .. will this phone i.e. the Libremn 5 generate enough revenue for their company for them to keep wanting to put out another device i.e is it going to be a one night stand or are they going to, one day give competition to iOS and Android .. develop better phones etc. example Jolla with their Sailfish OS? And FYI the FOSS community alone cannot keep it alive ... how many FOSS idealists here even care about this discussion? How does Bunsenlabs keep everything going .. the answer is money not Ideology

**Edit: and if I am still unclear #! was dropped by an extremely talented, innovative and imaginative FOSS Supporter because of Priorities that he had .. priorities that included putting food on the table**

Last edited by DustyB (2018-09-05 13:58:11)

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#22 2018-09-05 14:11:24

Jimbo_G
Member
From: France
Registered: 2017-05-12
Posts: 76

Re: Linux Smartphones

I'm not sure this stuff about 'basic principles of economics' and 'supply and demand' is actually applicable to these kinds of products. I believe there are now more options than the business model which says you must sell more than all your competitors and constantly increase your sales otherwise you no longer exist.

One of the ways we can use the internet is to create small communities that are interested in a niche product and are able to work together to create it. I think the Pyra is a good example of this - with just over 1000 pre-orders it's hardly going to take over the world, but it is going to exist and presumably make enough sales to pay the suppliers and some of the developers.

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#23 2018-09-05 14:28:02

DustyB
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 61

Re: Linux Smartphones

^jimbo ... you are very correct ... my question is towards sustaining a product ... not a one off iteration ... why jump from one niche product to another that if and when someone decides to come out with another after Pyra ...

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#24 2018-09-06 16:11:36

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,197
Website

Re: Linux Smartphones

DustyB, i used the term "gnu/linux" (and not just "linux") on purpose.
so my statement still stands:

there's no whatsapp on any gnu/linux anyhow.

let's expand that to "there's no full-featured whatsapp on any gnu/linux."
of course you can always use the browser version.

___________________________________________

there's no animosity.
it just sounds like the opinions you're posting are not very well informed.
they also sound very familiar, repeated many times over the years. honestly, i'm a little allergic to the preachers of economic sustainability in the linux world.

the information about the librem 5 is out there, and if you care to aquire it we might have a very different discussion about it.
but like i said, i'm not pushing it in any way, so i'll leave it at that.

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#25 2018-09-07 03:35:52

DustyB
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 61

Re: Linux Smartphones

Ok ... I apologise if that is the case ...

The Librem 5 will be my next phone ... but it is because of my personal trust issues to be honest

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