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#1 2015-10-14 11:26:02

nobody0
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Don't Break BunsenLabs?

@ HoaS,

You sign with  a link "Don't break Bunsenabs" and it directs to Debian wiki page "Don't break Debian." You had written you had done a LFS system, so "make install" is the one you had used there. The 4th suggestion in that wiki page is not that correct. Only, we don't give permission for Apt (or Synaptic) to break our system, as we know exactly what we had installed--most times in upgrading Apt would try to kill your system.

Also, there is no way to break BunsenLabs as the Bunsen apps/debs/scripts could be troubled only by the maintainers of those, not Debian devs.   

I for example, don't allow Apt to change lot of things, when upgrading, certainly not the scripts/binaries that Debian has nothing do. The other matter is, if you don't break your system you don't learn. Do you agree? That's how an Arch system is built on your computer. You read, install, maybe even break, and correct it.

[This is bit off topic, but the whole section is off topic.]

Last edited by nobody0 (2015-10-15 18:05:45)

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#2 2015-10-14 15:27:29

hhh
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

Yes, you're allowed to go off topic in Off Topic. It's still undetermined if this opens a wormhole.

But we were having the most civilized discussion of systemd around, and you want to play semantics games. BOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Actually, it had already digressed to manpages, so... meh.

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#3 2015-10-14 15:43:51

nobody0
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

hhh wrote:

Yes, you're allowed to go off topic in Off Topic. It's still undetermined if this opens a wormhole.

But we were having the most civilized discussion of systemd around, and you want to play semantics games. BOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Actually, it had already digressed to manpages, so... meh.

Okay! If It is that bad here, maybe I'd open another off topic thread.

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#4 2015-10-14 15:46:02

hhh
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

Seriously, it doesn't matter in Off Topic. Whatever.

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#5 2015-10-14 16:16:19

nobody0
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

hhh wrote:

Seriously, it doesn't matter in Off Topic. Whatever.

I was serious too on this don't break BusenLabs matter. I don't see how BunsenLabs be broken, if you guys don't break the Bunsen scripts.

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#6 2015-10-14 18:07:19

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

Mod Note:

Split from the systemd: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly thread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ostrolek wrote:

@ HoaS,

You sign with  a link "Don't break Bunsenabs" and it directs to Debian wiki page "Don't break Debian." You had written you had done a LFS system, so "make install" is the one you had used there. The 4th suggestion in that wiki page is not that correct.

What does the Don'tBreakDebian site have to do with my Linux From Scratch system?

Linux From Scratch is not based on Debian (or any other distribution) so what makes you think that the advice in a site about Debian would apply to LFS?

BunsenLabs is very closely based on Debian stable with only relatively minor configuration changes (as you yourself have noted on many occasions) and the fine advice contained in the link in my signature applies to BunsenLabs just as well as pure Debian.


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#7 2015-10-14 19:10:54

C#Coder4ever
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From: /dev/zero
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Posts: 260

Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

^ Agreed, if you mess up Bunsenlabs, do the exact thing to a pure debian system and it too will mess up.


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#8 2015-10-14 20:39:58

pvsage
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

@ostrolek does raise a good point about #4 on the Don't Break Debian page.  Sometimes, if you got stuck with the wrong hardware, you have no choice but to $( ./configure && make && make install ).  I used to have to do that to get a Realtek USB wifi thing to work properly.


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#9 2015-10-14 22:00:13

nobody0
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Posts: 664

Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
Mod Note:

Split from the systemd: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly thread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ostrolek wrote:

@ HoaS,

You sign with  a link "Don't break Bunsenabs" and it directs to Debian wiki page "Don't break Debian." You had written you had done a LFS system, so "make install" is the one you had used there. The 4th suggestion in that wiki page is not that correct.

What does the Don'tBreakDebian site have to do with my Linux From Scratch system?

Linux From Scratch is not based on Debian (or any other distribution) so what makes you think that the advice in a site about Debian would apply to LFS?

BunsenLabs is very closely based on Debian stable with only relatively minor configuration changes (as you yourself have noted on many occasions) and the fine advice contained in the link in my signature applies to BunsenLabs just as well as pure Debian.

The question is not about breaking Debian, but about breaking your installed system. Debian does not have an installed system, but an iso that'd install a system in your computer from packages pulled from Debian repos or from a set of CDs. BunsenLabs, on the other hand can be installed even without an internet connection. BunsenLabs cannot be broken by anything happening in Debian, as BunsenLabs packages are only dependent on Bunsen devs. The BL-scripts, as far as I know are now independent of any changes at Debian.

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#10 2015-10-14 23:12:14

damo
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Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 4,876

Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

ostrolek wrote:

... BunsenLabs cannot be broken by anything happening in Debian, as BunsenLabs packages are only dependent on Bunsen devs.

I have a BunsenLabs "system" built on a Debian Stable base system. If I mess up by pulling in packages from elsewhere it may break my installation.

Ergo - Don't break BunsenLabs. The effects are the same as far as I'm concerned.

So stop nitpicking about the words. Sheeesh roll

The BL-scripts, as far as I know are now independent of any changes at Debian.

Backports? Everything required to run a script?


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#11 2015-10-15 06:36:50

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

ostrolek wrote:

The question is not about breaking Debian, but about breaking your installed system. Debian does not have an installed system, but an iso that'd install a system in your computer from packages pulled from Debian repos or from a set of CDs. BunsenLabs, on the other hand can be installed even without an internet connection. BunsenLabs cannot be broken by anything happening in Debian, as BunsenLabs packages are only dependent on Bunsen devs. The BL-scripts, as far as I know are now independent of any changes at Debian.

I'm sorry but I can't understand any of this.

Are you aware that the live Debian ISO images work in exactly the same way as the BunsenLabs ISO image?


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#12 2015-10-15 07:41:14

nobody0
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
ostrolek wrote:

The question is not about breaking Debian, but about breaking your installed system. Debian does not have an installed system, but an iso that'd install a system in your computer from packages pulled from Debian repos or from a set of CDs. BunsenLabs, on the other hand can be installed even without an internet connection. BunsenLabs cannot be broken by anything happening in Debian, as BunsenLabs packages are only dependent on Bunsen devs. The BL-scripts, as far as I know are now independent of any changes at Debian.

I'm sorry but I can't understand any of this.

Are you aware that the live Debian ISO images work in exactly the same way as the BunsenLabs ISO image?

Yes, I know of the live.debian.net and had been using their live systems from time to time, when Debian has a new release. It is a subproject of Debian.

If you look #3.2.2 From source in this manual, http://live.debian.net/manual/current/h … ut-project you'd find that

make install

is considered correct and you can uninstall by

make uninstall

So, #4 advice of 'Don't break Debian" is bad advice.

Last edited by nobody0 (2015-10-15 07:42:49)

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#13 2015-10-15 13:07:59

dummie789
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Registered: 2015-10-07
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

If you break BunsenLabs you have no idea what kind of interdimensional beings will be released on the earth.  Be warned!

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#14 2015-10-15 16:53:05

Sector11
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

OH NO!  Interdimensional LabRats!

Movie at 22:30 - Parental Guidance Suggested


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#15 2015-10-15 19:37:44

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

ostrolek wrote:

If you look #3.2.2 From source in this manual, http://live.debian.net/manual/current/h … ut-project you'd find that

make install

is considered correct and you can uninstall by

make uninstall

So, #4 advice of 'Don't break Debian" is bad advice.

Utter nonsense.

From the Don'tBreakDebian site, point #4:

When you install software this way, you will not be able to remove it with apt-get or Synaptic. The APT packaging system can only remove software that was installed by the APT packaging system. Even worse, software installed this way can sometimes conflict with the software packaged for Debian.

Software installed this way also does not benefit from security updates the way that Debian packages do. If you want to keep your system up to date without having to manually compile and reinstall for every update, stick to the Debian packages.

What specifically is wrong with this advice?

The Live Manual page you have linked to deals with obtaining packages from git sources and lists the more "correct" method of installation (ie, using `dpkg-buildpackage` to make a .deb and installing that with APT) above the `make && make install` method -- the latter is the "lazy" choice and is *not* presented as the best technique.


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#16 2015-10-15 22:06:26

nobody0
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

^ Sure, it is the LFS lazy method.

What you can break is your install, not BunsenLabs (or Debian for that matter) and everyone is entitled to break their system from time to time. Its a learning curve.

This is something I've done by getting into the squashfs-root of BunsenLabs https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic … 1765#p1765 Some stuff I got by just doing "make" and copying them into appropriate directories.

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#17 2015-10-15 23:05:38

hhh
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

@ostrolek, what the hell are you arguing about? Everyone is entitled to break their system? No kidding, Sherlock! So you installed some packages without doing it "the Debian way" and it works for you. News flash: nobody cares! Stop evangelizing here and start your own distro, if it's that important to you.

The only thing you've succeeded in doing, as far as I'm concerned, is to irritate all the forum moderators and I don't know how many forum members.

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#18 2015-10-16 05:04:28

nobody0
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

^ Yes, I see that.
Only, I didn't start this thread. I only asked a simple question from HoaS in another thread, as I usually go though links people place here, and read them thoroughly. And, I only wrote here as it is the OfF Topic area.
I don't want to irritate anyone, so would you mind deleting the whole thread?

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#19 2015-10-16 06:39:39

Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

ostrolek wrote:

so would you mind deleting the whole thread?

In this case, no.

It contains useful information pertaining to system stability and reliability in BunsenLabs.

@ostrolek -- the reason why your questions keep getting split off into new threads is because the questions are off-topic.

Please try to keep your posts relevant to the thread topic and avoid hijacking other user's threads.

Thank you.


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#20 2015-10-16 08:41:56

nobody0
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

^ In that case, let's continue.
I am not at all worried about breaking my install. I make sure it won't get broken by Apt in an upgrade situation. I simply block Apt access to certain apps. I also keep the control data in a file in Documents.

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#21 2015-10-16 16:24:05

ohnonot
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Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

the - my - problem with forum members like ostrolk is this:
when i speak my mind about them, i risk getting banned, although it's actually them that should get banned.

hhh wrote:

The only thing you've succeeded in doing, as far as I'm concerned, is to irritate all the forum moderators and I don't know how many forum members.

ostrolek wrote:

^ Yes, I see that.
(...)
I don't want to irritate anyone, so would you mind deleting the whole thread?

HoaS wrote:

In this case, no.

ostrolek wrote:

^ In that case, let's continue.

that made me lol, literally, and i have a cold atm, so the sound is worthy of a crime movie.

but that's just meta; or off-off-off-topic.

there is, however, a certain attitude i encounter in fellow forum members every now and then, and it always makes me wonder, laugh, and wtf:
people feeling offended if someone says "follow certain rules if you don't want to break your system".
replying something like "hey, i have a right to break my system!" - well, nobody's disputing that.
if that is your way of rebelling.
laughable to me, i can think of far more sensible ways of rebeling other than destroying my computer's operating system.
[ and don't come posting thread after thread demanding help because mysteriously, and really through no fault of your own, your box won't boot anymore. ]

i'm not saying that's you in particular, ostrolek. it's just me flexing my fingers on a friday night after a drink or two and it's quiet on the forums.

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#22 2015-10-16 19:25:06

nobody0
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Posts: 664

Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

^ I don't drink alcohol or smoke tobacco.

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#23 2015-10-17 00:32:46

g33zr
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From: State of Confusion
Registered: 2015-09-30
Posts: 281

Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

Rules...those to break...those to follow...the Debian Way...the Arch Way...boooorrriiinnnggg.... When I think about how many rules I've broken...let alone while running Linux name-that-distro...it's a wonder I haven't borked whatever I ran more often than I did...not that I ever knew exactly what I was doing to begin with...but mostly everything has worked and run fine. So much for rules. Peace.  angel


What? Me worry?

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#24 2015-10-17 08:57:22

nobody0
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Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 664

Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

^ In the early days, I used to update/upgrade blindly. Not any more.

Linux is all about files, and the installed system is yours, not some distro's. It stays owned/controlled by the distro by some configs placed in it. Repos are storage, where the given distro keeps packages, which it thinks are good for us. Its always better to download the package, deb or otherwise, look into it, if it is needed, install it. "If it works, don't fix it."

File extensions mean nothing to the Linux OS. It is just a carry-over from DOS. If you are installing a deb package using

dpkg -i some_package_name.deb

just delete the .deb part of that package and do the dpkg -i and you'd find that pacakge installed.

As for me, I unarchive the deb package, look in the contol file to see what the 'package' is dependent on, unarchive the data, copy and paste the files--only the needed ones--that go to /usr/bin, /usr/share and other relevant directories, but don't paste the files that go in the /usr/share/doc directory. That way, Apt has no access to upgrade it without my knowledge. This is what I do for a long time, but you do the installing your way. I haven't had a breakage for a long while.

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#25 2015-10-17 09:18:16

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,663
Website

Re: Don't Break BunsenLabs?

ostrolek wrote:

As for me, I unarchive the deb package, look in the contol file to see what the 'package' is dependent on, unarchive the data, copy and paste the files--only the needed ones--that go to /usr/bin, /usr/share and other relevant directories, but don't paste the files that go in the /usr/share/doc directory. That way, Apt has no access to upgrade it without my knowledge. This is what I do for a long time, but you do the installing your way. I haven't had a breakage for a long while.

original quote from the previous post.
i just want to preserve this bit for posterity & future reference.

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