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#1 2016-05-16 00:40:27

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
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[STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

We have added a third ISO with our Stable Release, and that is the CD-sized non-PAE kernel image.

Kernel

The 586 (non-PAE) kernel is for very old hardware, and it can perform very poorly with some newer hardware. If you install the image to disk, our bunsen-welcome script will automatically detect the presence of PAE hardware and will you prompt you to upgrade to the 686 kernel (thanks to the amazing @johnraff). If you get poor performance with this ISO when running it Live, I suggest using our standard i386 ISO for Live 32 bit instances instead.

Packages

In order to get a small enough ISO, many packages were simply omitted, while Geany and Terminator were substituted with Leafpad and Lxterminal. To quickly install all missing packages, install our new bunsen-meta-all package (again, @johnraff!!! angel )...

sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade && sudo apt install bunsen-meta-all

You can remove Leafpad and Lxterminal after that if you want...

sudo apt purge leafpad lxterminal && sudo apt-get --purge autoremove

If you have any additional feedback or input into upgrading a CD-sized install to a standard one, please post in this thread.

Thanks!

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#2 2016-05-16 01:07:04

hhh
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

Please note: As it is a security risk, flashplugin-nonfree was removed from our standard images and is now an install-option in our bunsen-welcome script, but it was accidentally included in this image. Security-minded users should remove flashplugin-nonfree.

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#3 2016-05-16 04:20:00

Horizon_Brave
Operating System: Linux-Nettrix
Registered: 2015-10-18
Posts: 1,473

Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

This may be a silly question... but if a build for the 586 is for very old, mostly non-pae hardware... isn't the 386 build be for even older hardware?   You say:

hhh wrote:

If you get poor performance with this ISO when running it Live, I suggest using our standard i386 ISO for Live 32 bit instances instead.

Implying that the 386 would be a better option for some newer hardware, how would this be, if the 386 is based on an older cpu architecture itself?  Or do I have this all wrong, and my whole life has been a lie?


"I have not failed, I have found 10,000 ways that will not work" -Edison

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#4 2016-05-16 07:27:44

earlybird
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Registered: 2015-12-16
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

Horizon_Brave wrote:

This may be a silly question... but if a build for the 586 is for very old, mostly non-pae hardware... isn't the 386 build be for even older hardware?   You say:

hhh wrote:

If you get poor performance with this ISO when running it Live, I suggest using our standard i386 ISO for Live 32 bit instances instead.

Implying that the 386 would be a better option for some newer hardware, how would this be, if the 386 is based on an older cpu architecture itself?  Or do I have this all wrong, and my whole life has been a lie?

No. In the context of Debian, "i386" => all 32bit x86 architecures, up to i786. The standard 32bit  ISO contains an i686 kernel which makes use of the instructions i686 has over i586.

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#5 2016-05-16 10:08:27

pvsage
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Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,433

Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

Basically, I386 refers to the architecture class, i.e. all 32-bit Intel-compatible processors, including whatever the latest generation of single-core processors.  By contrast, the 586 kernel was specifically built to support the earliest 32-bit processors, including the first-generation Pentiums.


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#6 2016-05-16 12:05:22

hhh
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

It should also be mentioned that jessie will be the last Debian release to support 586-class processors, future versions starting with stretch will require 686-class or better. The announcement and a list of affected processors are here...

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a … 00001.html

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#7 2016-05-16 15:26:31

brontosaurusrex
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Registered: 2015-09-29
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

Any data for the # of 64 vs 32 bit downloads? (or ratio)

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#8 2016-05-16 16:25:45

twoion
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Registered: 2015-08-10
Posts: 2,484

Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

brontosaurusrex wrote:

Any data for the # of 64 vs 32 bit downloads? (or ratio)

No. But if my torrent seeds are any indication...

64:       67.53  99.64  98.47  0.4252485
32nopae:  29.18  43.89  45.58  0.1899403
32:       65.70  86.94  87.74  0.3848112

A silent kite against the blue, blue sky

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#9 2016-05-16 23:02:40

Horizon_Brave
Operating System: Linux-Nettrix
Registered: 2015-10-18
Posts: 1,473

Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

Ah, thanks for the clarification pvsavage and mad,  So I was basically confusing the name of the kernel with the actual legacy cpu architecture.   The 586 kernel was compiled to work on 586 and backwards cpu's. 

Why on earth is the i386 name applied to ALL single core 32bit (even the current ones) cpu's?? That just seems like it's begging to be as confusing as possible...

So.. because debian is cutting off the 586 kernel, the i386 kernel is still fine for use then, since it incorporates the 686 and 786?


"I have not failed, I have found 10,000 ways that will not work" -Edison

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#10 2016-05-17 00:02:38

hhh
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

Yes.

And assuming jessie goes LTS, 586 will be supported until the end of the decade...

https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/

I was thinking about this today... this means that we've spun (@johnraff's script-fu was essential) maybe the only Debian "stable" (jessie) Live ISO that supports 586 and fits on a CD... evah?

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#11 2016-05-17 07:00:35

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

A note about recommends.

A new install of BunsenLabs comes with apt configured to install packages with recommends. (This is the Debian default setting.)
bunsen-meta-all recommends all the packages in the regular BL install, so

sudo apt install bunsen-meta-all

will pull in all the packages missing from the "CD" iso.
This means that those packages' recommends will also be installed, and so on recursively, resulting in a somewhat bigger system than by directly installing one of the larger isos.

This could have been avoided by making bunsen-meta-all depend on the packages instead of recommending them. Then by installing it with the option '--no-install-recommends' you could get just the packages on the list, the same as in the regular isos. The disadvantage of that method is that if you removed just one package that had been brought in that way, then bunsen-meta-all would have to be removed too (it would depend on all the packages) and all the other packages on the list would be made orphans, liable to be removed by the next 'apt-get autoremove'.

So recommends were chosen as the better of two imperfect options. (Discussion on CrunchBang forum.)


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
In case you forget, the rules.

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#12 2016-05-17 09:24:25

pvsage
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Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 1,433

Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

Horizon_Brave wrote:

Why on earth is the i386 name applied to ALL single core 32bit (even the current ones) cpu's??

Because Wintel.  If I recall correctly, the 80486, all processors bearing the name Pentium, and all subsequent processors based on the x86 architecture are supposedly backward-compatible with code that ran on the 80386.  Or perhaps it has just been convenient for Linux developers to continue to refer to it as "the i386 architecture" for the sake of continuity.

Conversely, older processors are not forward-compatible with code written for newer hardware due to changes in the chips' capabilities, so having a kernel that supports hardware that is no longer capable of running a modern operating system is considered cruft.  It sorta makes sense for the Linux kernel to be named for the oldest hardware that it'll run on.


Be excellent to each other, and...party on, dudes!
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#13 2016-05-17 09:26:32

hhh
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

@johnraff, I think this is a good compromise. So I'm clear, though...

This command...

sudo apt install --no-install-recommends bunsen-meta-all

This should upgrade the CD ISO to a standard install pretty much identical to the standard ISO, right?

@All, we're talking about just a few extra packages, this is really nitpicking.

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#14 2016-05-18 01:11:26

AL13N
Member
Registered: 2015-10-05
Posts: 148

Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

hhh wrote:

I was thinking about this today... this means that we've spun (@johnraff's script-fu was essential) maybe the only Debian "stable" (jessie) Live ISO that supports 586 and fits on a CD... evah?

http://linuxbbq.org/bbs/viewtopic.php?f … c3995ada50

Still a rarity though.

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#15 2016-05-18 02:06:12

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 5,731
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

hhh wrote:

This command...

sudo apt install --no-install-recommends bunsen-meta-all

This should upgrade the CD ISO to a standard install pretty much identical to the standard ISO, right?

@hhh we've been here before. That command won't install anything! smile

But, agreed, for most users the extra recommends brought in by using the metapackage, while not trivial IMO, shouldn't matter too much. I'll get an exact list in a day or two.


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
In case you forget, the rules.

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#16 2016-06-03 04:07:23

hhh
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

sudo apt install bunsen-meta-all

@johnraff, right. This, thanks!

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#17 2016-06-03 04:51:20

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 5,731
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

@hhh I'm thinking of moving post #16 out into the "development" section, because tests showed it might not be that simple, and the load of techy crud that follows might just clog up this "announcements" thread.
OK?


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
In case you forget, the rules.

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#18 2016-06-03 12:39:25

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

Done.

https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic.php?id=2050

Let me know if you have a better subject title.

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#19 2016-06-04 03:34:58

johnraff
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From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 5,731
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

^Done. (I'm a mod too, remember?)


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
In case you forget, the rules.

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#20 2016-06-04 03:36:50

hhh
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Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 8,324
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Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

Lol, I wasn't sure if you could edit my Subject. I forgot you're a SuperMod!

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#21 2016-06-04 04:00:03

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2015-09-09
Posts: 5,731
Website

Re: [STABLE RELEASE] CD-sized ISO Additional Info

^No, johnraff is just a regular mod like you. I only put on the blue suit with outside underpants on rare occasions when it's needed!


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
In case you forget, the rules.

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