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#2551 2019-02-08 20:29:02

Bearded_Blunder
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Posts: 604

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

52% voted to "leave" - 37% of the electorate, on a 72% turnout: this could never be be considered "a great percentage of the UK". 
Presumably they voted for a variety of reasons - and they weren't asked what the terms of leaving should be. Many probably disregarded the warnings about the consequences.

That's a much clearer indication of the public's will than in general elections, where we typically end up ruled by the biggest *minority* from a smaller turnout, it actually represents a majority of the votes cast. PR is even worse, there you get ruled by the string pulling of the smallest minority with enough seats to hold the balance.. that's a whole other topic though.

Didn't heed the warnings? You couldn't ESCAPE the constant scare-mongering as the news channels pounded on CONSTANTLY with them, the BBC still haven't *quit* campaigning for remain...  Yes there will be consequences, yes economic ones, & yes NI will get in a snit, maybe leave voters decided eyes open it was a price worth paying? I certainly did.

damo wrote:

... the previous referendum about the EU, when 67% of the voters were in favour of staying.

Asked about reversing a done deal and having been in what was more a free trade area than what the EU became.
That vote may well have had a very different outcome had the nation been asked their opinion on *JOINING* rather than leaving after the fact.


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#2552 2019-02-08 20:52:34

THX1138
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Posts: 165

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

PR is even worse, there you get ruled by the string pulling of the smallest minority with enough seats to hold the balance.. that's a whole other topic though.

Sorry I cant agree with that. Look at scotland where 8 million people gave the SNP 56 seats. UKIP got 8 and a half million votes and got NO SEATS ! I would prefer to be in a country where what the electorate votes counts rather than a country where what wool the electoral commission, and the boundary commission, can pull over our eyes is what counts. Jacob Rees-Mogg outrightly called the electoral commission corrupt, not fit for purpose, and biased, and in my estimation he is right. Bear in mind JRM is an expert on the British economy and has held several junior ministerial posts in the relevant departments for budgetary and fiscal policy. He is also an acknowledged expert on relations between the UK and EU. If he tells me the electoral commission is corrupt I know it's true

You couldn't ESCAPE the constant scare-mongering as the news channels pounded on CONSTANTLY with them, the BBC still haven't *quit* campaigning for remain...

Totally agree, but dont forget channel 4, the most rabid loony left wing pro-remain  propaganda on the planet

Last edited by THX1138 (2019-02-08 21:09:54)


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#2553 2019-02-08 20:59:26

THX1138
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Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 165

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

damo wrote:

^ I was pointing out that it wasn't a "a great percentage of the UK". 

Maybe a super-majority vote should have been implemented in order to overturn the result of the previous referendum about the EU, when 67% of the voters were in favour of staying.

Yeah but I was pointing out that it was the only percentage of the vote that matters.
- also a "super majority vote is irrelevant" It's a referendum of how people feel at a particular time, not a jury that has consequences forever

Just a question though I get the impression you are pro-remain - but your reply to my reply makes me uncertain (please clarify)

Last edited by THX1138 (2019-02-08 21:11:40)


You have to do stuff that average people don't understand because those are the only good things (Andy Warhol)

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#2554 2019-02-08 21:33:16

damo
....moderator....
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 4,592

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

THX1138 wrote:

...
- but your reply to my reply makes me uncertain (please clarify)

Mission achieved then wink


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#2555 2019-02-08 21:56:11

THX1138
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Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 165

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

Mission achieved then wink

LOL !


You have to do stuff that average people don't understand because those are the only good things (Andy Warhol)

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#2556 2019-02-08 22:55:34

Bearded_Blunder
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Posts: 604

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

Every electoral system has its own problems, each introduces it's own unfairnesses. We'd had a system like Germany requiring 10% national support before representation Scotland & Wales would be a tad upset, even with the massive support the SNP got they'd have not reached the bar to get any seats. In fact Wales couldn't even if the population voted unanimously on 100% turnout for a Welsh national party.

Remove the threshold & you can easily see a situation where e.g. the BNP has the deciding say *in a parliamentary vote* on issues that split the others, I suspect the only people who'd like that are BNP supporters. Or whichever loony fringe party happened to hold the deciding last vote or 3, needn't be BNP though they make a good example as they have enough support across the nation to end up in that position & fortunately not enough to start winning seats as things are.

PR results in coalitions that please nobody, look at the last coalition, or consider deciding a seaside trip from Birmingham by PR, card offers Brighton, Gt. Yarmouth, Aberystwyth weight passenger votes in miles.. PR == day trip to Milton Keynes.  So much for the advertised seaside trip. FPP you end up at the seaside, even if it wan't your chosen beach.

FPP is accurately accused of not being perfect, it is unfair, but it does please the biggest minority amongst the voters in the majority of elections.  That's actually the biggest number of "satisfied individual voters" you can have under any system. Yes more people didn't get what they wanted than did. My own opinion, that beats nobody got what they wanted.

There isn't a perfect one. I prefer the unfairnesses of what we have to the unfairnesses of PR which gives small parties with little support undue influence, I can only cite problems though, not propose a solution.  I also know my opinion isn't usually shared, I will point out that advocates of PR tend to be from those same smaller parties who'd gain undue influence (swing votes in parliament) as a result though.

All electoral systems are unfair, just in different ways.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#2557 2019-02-09 07:14:18

ohnonot
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Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,428
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Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

^ there were strong allegations that the referendum results were influenced by the same company that also influenced the US elections in 2016, namely Cambridge Analytica.

which sort of brings me back to the otherthing I posted:

ohnonot wrote:

German Cartel Office resists facebook:
https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/07/germa … gathering/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-face … SKCN1PW0XP
https://www.bundeskartellamt.de/SharedD … ebook.html
they're not just "concerned", they're demanding things that will be heavily fined if not complied with after some time. concerning german users, i presume.
together with some other recent EU-wide online privacy and security measures, some of them directly against facebook and google, this is looking very good.
the plot thickens.

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#2558 2019-02-09 07:48:09

Bearded_Blunder
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Posts: 604

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

Short of vote tampering, actually stuffing ballot boxes, no company can influence an election. They might influence *voters*, but then so might a man standing on Hyde-Park-Corner, & certainly the TV news organizations do with their constant slant.

No different from any other campaign tactic, probably only even being moaned about because it was persuading the opposite way to the newsies favourite.  Putting a point of view to people isn't cheating, no matter who does the putting.  Threatening consequences if someone doesn't take your view would be, not simply putting it to them & leaving them to decide.  Which face it is the limit of what anyone can do online.

"Free Speech" pretty much means trying to persuade people to your view is acceptable.  So is actually being persuasive. I've no problem with Cambridge Analytica trying to persuade people, only with them abusing private information. Same for googlebook & face.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#2559 2019-02-09 08:06:00

ohnonot
...again
Registered: 2015-09-29
Posts: 3,428
Website

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

"Free Speech" pretty much means trying to persuade people to your view is acceptable.  So is actually being persuasive. I've no problem with Cambridge Analytica trying to persuade people...

i completely rest my case.
CA is an advocate of free speech.
Analyzing people and creating targeted lies they're likely to believe is "being persuasive"... right.
I wish I was good enough with words to completely debunk your flawed conclusions.
all i can do is point to what was in the news back then and can still be found on the wikipedia article.

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

...only with them abusing private information. Same for googlebook & face.

but you can't really separate these two things, can you?
at least not in these cases.

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#2560 2019-02-09 08:13:07

Bearded_Blunder
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Posts: 604

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

Analyzing people and creating targeted lies they're likely to believe is "being persuasive"... right.

Just more efficient than saying the same to everyone, say it to everyone & exactly the same ones believe as would if you targetted it.

& how is Targetting that way any different from deciding you'll do better canvassing the council estate to get out the labour vote than the posh development with 5 bedroom detached houses?


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#2561 2019-02-09 08:24:59

S7.L
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Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 338

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

damo wrote:
S7.L wrote:

^ didn't a great percentage of the UK vote to leave the EU due to unreasonable constraints on how the UK can govern itself?

52% voted to "leave" - 37% of the electorate, on a 72% turnout: this could never be be considered "a great percentage of the UK". 
Presumably they voted for a variety of reasons - and they weren't asked what the terms of leaving should be. Many probably disregarded the warnings about the consequences.

Great is probably not the best word to use agreed so maybe majority rule to leave the EU who voted and to those who didn't vote they should not be counted in an election. Ive read that this referendum was one if the biggest votes in UK history, the turnout was bigger than any of the general elections so maybe just maybe it was a great percentage on both sides of the argument to be precise. Anyhow im from Australia and we cant even keep a prime minister in for more than a few years without being outed by the party who voted him/her in.

Sucks you may have issues with medication though, i hope you dont.

Last edited by S7.L (2019-02-09 08:25:55)

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#2562 2019-02-09 08:46:01

Bearded_Blunder
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Posts: 604

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

Compared to the USA it's a massive percentage, most of their votes they're lucky to see 40% turnout, if you required 50% of the population they'd not be able to install a government, in fact the only places you could would be ones where you're legally required to vote, which would in itself be a curb on your freedom. Even then you'd have to reduce it to a 2 candidate race somehow, either by knockout rounds or transfer of votes to 2nd or 3rd choices.

No voting system is perfect, but on a simple yes-no decision, accepting the majority vote of those who cared enough to turn out is as good as it gets.

So, brexit vote = solid as it gets.


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...
If there's an obscure or silly way to break it, but you don't know what.. Just ask me

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#2563 2019-02-09 15:59:51

misko_2083
Member
Registered: 2016-05-24
Posts: 133

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

Compared to the USA it's a massive percentage, most of their votes they're lucky to see 40% turnout, if you required 50% of the population they'd not be able to install a government, in fact the only places you could would be ones where you're legally required to vote, which would in itself be a curb on your freedom. Even then you'd have to reduce it to a 2 candidate race somehow, either by knockout rounds or transfer of votes to 2nd or 3rd choices.

No voting system is perfect, but on a simple yes-no decision, accepting the majority vote of those who cared enough to turn out is as good as it gets.

So, brexit vote = solid as it gets.

"There is a minimum level of education and awareness, without which every vote is turned into a farce. Here, elementary literacy is required, which allows a person to print its name instead of a fingerprint. Here is required the understanding of the electoral process and the offered programs, the good assessment of the candidates, the understanding of the state and economic order of the country and it's needs, the correct understanding of political, international and war danger; ultimately access to the sources of the accurate information." (Ivan Iljin)

Politicians strategically use the media to manipulate population and can turn the tide of the public opinion. Keeping the majority of the population behave and think just right how they want. Noam Chomsky explained some of those strategies.
Noam Chomsky - "10 strategies of manipulation"

Would there be elections if the voting could change anything?
"If the elections could change anything they'd be forbidden." (Mark Twain)

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#2564 2019-02-09 19:41:34

THX1138
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Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 165

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

The odd thing about the Cambridge Analytica thing is that Labour and Conservative both used them in the 2015 elections. It seems a little unfair of the political parties to blast CA for doing in the referendum via facebook what CA did in those elections. There was absolutely no difference. What they did was to fail to convince people against leaving and that was their only crime


You have to do stuff that average people don't understand because those are the only good things (Andy Warhol)

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#2565 2019-02-09 21:23:29

damo
....moderator....
Registered: 2015-08-20
Posts: 4,592

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

THX1138 wrote:

.... What they did was to fail to convince people against leaving and that was their only crime

You mean apart from the illegal data-gathering, the alleged use of prostitutes, the use of non-nationals in US election activity, the dirty-tricks against politicians in various countries, etc?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica


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#2566 2019-02-09 21:27:59

hhh
That's it!
Registered: 2015-09-17
Posts: 6,602
Website

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

Wait... prostitutes to discredit someone's character? How's that work, like a sting? I'm at a bar and a hot girl sits next to me, says let's go back to your place, and then asks for cash when you're there?

Idiots, they had it coming, er, so to speak.

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#2567 2019-02-10 01:30:56

THX1138
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Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 165

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

You seriously cant think politicians in the UK actually care how grimy they get, all they care about is getting into power, staying in power, making their bank balance bigger, and keeping the UK electorate doing what they want it to do and keep them working for the upper classes. I am pretty sure that as you leave the parliament building there are signs outside saying "now wash your hands"


You have to do stuff that average people don't understand because those are the only good things (Andy Warhol)

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#2568 2019-02-10 04:06:30

damo
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Posts: 4,592

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

^ And you still trust Jacob Rees-Mogg, the archetype of what you have just described?


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#2569 2019-02-10 14:07:15

THX1138
Member
Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 165

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

I trust him because so far I have had no reason to distrust him
Just to qualify that. I only trust him as far as I could throw him, which isnt very far I expect. The others I wouldnt even trust them that much

Also how could you not trust a guy who looks exactly like walter the softy?
https://news.sky.com/story/beano-tells- … y-11316413

Last edited by THX1138 (2019-02-10 14:23:03)


You have to do stuff that average people don't understand because those are the only good things (Andy Warhol)

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#2570 2019-02-10 15:04:31

S7.L
Member
Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 338

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

damo wrote:

^ And you still trust Jacob Rees-Mogg, the archetype of what you have just described?

Im sure anti brexiteers are just as trustworthy in politics damo.

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#2571 2019-02-10 15:05:54

S7.L
Member
Registered: 2018-09-16
Posts: 338

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

damo wrote:
THX1138 wrote:

.... What they did was to fail to convince people against leaving and that was their only crime

You mean apart from the illegal data-gathering, the alleged use of prostitutes, the use of non-nationals in US election activity, the dirty-tricks against politicians in various countries, etc?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica

Oh it must be true, its in wikipedia!!! lol

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#2572 2019-02-10 15:08:20

misko_2083
Member
Registered: 2016-05-24
Posts: 133

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

THX I had a feeling you described the Serbian parliament.
The politicians pretend to have a debate in the parliament, you'd think they hate each other, after work they all binge together in kafanas.

It's a general archetype.
The only difference is that it's more or less obvious.

I see the resemblance with walter the softy. Don't trust him too much, sooner or later he'll be changing the tune. Politicians say only what's currently in their advantage.

Last edited by misko_2083 (2019-02-10 15:08:37)

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#2573 2019-02-10 15:14:17

THX1138
Member
Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 165

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

misko_2083 wrote:

THX I had a feeling you described the Serbian parliament.
The politicians pretend to have a debate in the parliament, you'd think they hate each other, after work they all binge together in kafanas.

It's a general archetype.
The only difference is that it's more or less obvious.

I see the resemblance with walter the softy. Don't trust him too much, sooner or later he'll be changing the tune. Politicians say only what's currently in their advantage.

I totally agree, they all fail us in the finish, but when youre holding on by a fingernail to the very last hope that someone elected just might be telling you the truth you tend to hang on just a bit longer than you should and vote for them


You have to do stuff that average people don't understand because those are the only good things (Andy Warhol)

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#2574 2019-02-10 20:39:58

misko_2083
Member
Registered: 2016-05-24
Posts: 133

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

^At least you still have a hope.

I don't like writing about Brexit because I was labeled with bad names on another forum.
Didn't even say that I agree or not. All I said was that people will adapt to any change.
Not that I like the idea that Damo will have to find a way to smuggle in his medications for some time.

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#2575 2019-02-10 22:01:11

THX1138
Member
Registered: 2019-01-14
Posts: 165

Re: Completely Off Topic Chat

misko_2083 wrote:

^At least you still have a hope.

I don't like writing about Brexit because I was labeled with bad names on another forum.
Didn't even say that I agree or not. All I said was that people will adapt to any change.
Not that I like the idea that Damo will have to find a way to smuggle in his medications for some time.

I dont mind, the referendum happened, I voted against staying in, that's life. If people talk about the referendum they should expect some opposition to their arguments I mean over half of us voted out. Just under half voted remain. I'm not ashamed of that, I'm more ashamed of how badly people react to the news their vote wasnt enough to keep us in the EU.
I never voted to stop medicines I voted for a different arrangement concerning Britains ability to trade with the world. The politicians asked me to vote. I imagined they had a plan. It surprises me that they never had anything so basic as medicines taken care of, but that's not my fault, it is theirs

Last edited by THX1138 (2019-02-10 22:09:45)


You have to do stuff that average people don't understand because those are the only good things (Andy Warhol)

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